The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Secret Alias »

Already have [read Irenaeus]
Really? I don't believe it. This is pointless. Anyone who has ever read Irenaeus recognizes the powerful role he had in forming the canon. The reason for the four gospels has nothing to do with 'elections' or popularity but because of a Platonic (or possibly Pythagorean) prejudice in favor of the primal generative nature of the number four. How would that have been decided by 'elections' or 'popularity'? Again, you are moron who lies in a moronic manner. If you had actually read Irenaeus you'd have answers to many of your 'objections' and 'difficulties' right there.

There is no support for the idea that the canon was decided by 'popularity' or a vote in the first or second centuries. Irenaeus just simply says 'presto - the right number is four' the Holy Spirit told me so. Sorry, you've not read Irenaeus.

Show me one place in Irenaeus where the correctness of the canon was determined by popularity. Indeed show any evidence from the second century that upholds your claims. There are none. You'd like us instead to focus on a hand picked number of statements in modern scholarship which has no ancient sources to support your claims.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote: you are moron who lies in a moronic manner. .

I can see your done here.

Supply credible sources, and stop the whining please.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Secret Alias »

Supply credibly sources? Irenaeus's statement in Book Three is common knowledge as is Celsus's echo (negative spin) which supports my contention even further. Here is the original statement in Irenaeus:
Such, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there is one God, the Maker of this universe; He who was also announced by the prophets, and who by Moses set forth the dispensation of the law,--[principles] which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ignore any other God or Father except Him. So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these [documents], each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine. For the Ebionites, who use Matthew's Gospel(3) only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord. But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he still retains. Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified. Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true.

8. It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds,(4) while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the "pillar and ground"(5) of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sitteth upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit. As also David says, when entreating His manifestation, "Thou that sittest between the cherubim, shine forth."(6) For the cherubim, too, were four-faced, and their faces were images of the dispensation of the Son of God. For, [as the Scripture] says, "The first living creature was like a lion,"(7) symbolizing His effectual working, His leadership, and royal power; the second [living creature] was like a calf, signifying [His] sacrificial and sacerdotal order; but "the third had, as it were, the face as of a man,"--an evident description of His advent as a human being; "the fourth was like a flying eagle," pointing out the gift of the Spirit hovering with His wings over the Church. And therefore the Gospels are in accord with these things, among which Christ Jesus is seated. For that according to John relates His original, effectual, and glorious generation from the Father, thus declaring, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."(8) Also, "all things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made." For this reason, too, is that Gospel full of all confidence, for such is His person.(9) But that according to Luke, taking up [His] priestly character, commenced with Zacharias the priest offering sacrifice to God. For now was made ready the fatted calf, about to be immolated for(10) the finding again of the younger son. Matthew, again, relates His generation as a man, saying, "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham;"(11) and also, "The birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise." This, then, is the Gospel of His humanity;(12) for which reason it is, too, that [the character of] a humble and meek man is kept up through the whole Gospel. Mark, on the other hand, commences with [a reference to] the prophetical spirit coming down from on high to men, saying, "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as it is written in Esaias the prophet,"--pointing to the winged aspect of the Gospel; and on this account he made a compendious and cursory narrative, for such is the prophetical character. And the Word of God Himself used to converse with the ante-Mosaic patriarchs, in accordance with His divinity and glory; but for those under the law he instituted a sacerdotal and liturgical service.(1) Afterwards, being made man for us, He sent the gift of the celestial Spirit over all the earth, protecting us with His wings. Such, then, as was the course followed by the Son of God, so was also the form of the living creatures; and such as was the form of the living creatures, so was also the character of the Gospel.(2) For the living creatures are quadriform, and the Gospel is quadriform, as is also the course followed by the Lord. For this reason were four principal (kaqolikai) covenants given to the human race:(3) one, prior to the deluge, under Adam; the second, that after the deluge, under Noah; the third, the giving of the law, under Moses; the fourth, that which renovates man, and sums up all things in itself by means of the Gospel, raising and bearing men upon its wings into the heavenly kingdom.

9. These things being so, all who destroy the form of the Gospel are vain, unlearned, and also audacious; those, [I mean,] who represent the aspects of the Gospel as being either more in number than as aforesaid, or, on the other hand, fewer. The former class [do so], that they may seem to have discovered more than is of the truth; the latter, that they may set the dispensations of God aside. For Marcion, rejecting the entire Gospel, yea rather, cutting himself off from the Gospel, boasts that he has part in the [blessings of] the Gospel.(4) Others, again (the Montanists), that they may set at nought the gift of the Spirit, which in the latter times has been, by the good pleasure of the Father, poured out upon the human race, do not admit that aspect [of the evangelical dispensation] presented by John's Gospel, in which the Lord promised that He would send the Paraclete;(5) but set aside at once both the Gospel and the prophetic Spirit. Wretched men indeed! who wish to be pseudo- prophets, forsooth, but who set aside the gift of prophecy from the Church; acting like those (the Encratitae)(6) who, on account of such as come in hypocrisy, hold themselves aloof from the communion of the brethren. We must conclude, moreover, that these men (the Montanists) can not admit the Apostle Paul either. For, in his Epistle to the Corinthians,(7) he speaks expressly of prophetical gifts, and recognises men and women prophesying in the Church. Sinning, therefore, in all these particulars, against the Spirit of God,(8) they fall into the irremissible sin. But those who are from Valentinus, being, on the other hand, altogether reckless, while they put forth their own compositions, boast that they possess more Gospels than there really are. Indeed, they have arrived at such a pitch of audacity, as to entitle their comparatively recent writing "the Gospel of Truth," though it agrees in nothing with the Gospels of the Apostles, so that they have really no Gospel which is not full of blasphemy. For if what they have published is the Gospel of truth, and yet is totally unlike those which have been handed down to us from the apostles, any who please may learn, as is shown from the Scriptures themselves, that that which has been handed down from the apostles can no longer be reckoned the Gospel of truth. But that these Gospels alone are true and reliable, and admit neither an increase nor diminution of the aforesaid number, I have proved by so many and such [arguments]. For, since God made all things in due proportion and adaptation, it was fit also that the outward aspect of the Gospel should be well arranged and harmonized. The opinion of those men, therefore, who handed the Gospel down to us, having been investigated, from their very fountainheads, let us proceed also to the remaining apostles, and inquire into their doctrine with regard to God; then, in due course we shall listen to the very words of the Lord.
WTF does any of this have to do with 'popularity'? Irenaeus just says 'the right number is four' - presto, alakhazam - everyone has to accept the Holy Spirit's dictum (as I heard it). What don't you understand?

Celsus reading this (again in a public library) turns around and tears it to shreds - the Christians forged the gospel three or four times. This is what is plainly evident to any objective observer. Irenaeus falsified the canon. No reasonable person goes about setting canonicity in this absurd mystical manner.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Secret Alias »

You have all these heretical communities working with one gospel. Irenaeus even goes so fucking far as to say that God arranged the universe in such a way that there had to be four heretics A PRIORI to my proclamation to reinforce the holiness of the number four - i.e. the heretics came first and the proclamation came second. In other words, the fourfold nature of the canon only became manifest by the Spirit in the time Irenaeus wrote (because the four heretics had to come first). Also the Jewish epithet minim for the heretics might well come from the fourfold canon too as the Torah specifies 'four species' (arbat ha minim = ארבעת המינים‎ ).
Last edited by Secret Alias on Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote: Anyone who has ever read Irenaeus recognizes the powerful role he had in forming the canon.


What they DO recognize is his rhetorical justification and backing of the popular text in his combat against the Gnostic's text.


He is a back road on the overall map here, and you made specific claims he alone was responsible for Acts future widespread use in Christian communities, and when it came time for you to supply sources, you did the usual, tuck tail and ran. Similar to a rabid hound foaming at the mouth.

Without him, we would still possess the same text, with the same basic mythology.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Secret Alias »

But he doesn't say 'this existed before me' what he says is - the four heretics with four corrupted gospels existed before me and THAT SET THE STAGE FOR THE FOURFOLD NATURE OF THE GOSPEL TO BE MANIFEST TO THE WORLD (by means of the Holy Spirit). Look at what he fucking says for God's sake! The fourfold canon was established by Irenaeus. Celsus's statement is a reflection of contemporary events not things that happened at the beginning of Christianity. He speaks in the present tense too!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote: Irenaeus just says 'the right number is four' - presto, alakhazam


.
Because the 4 were already popular :facepalm:


In context he is standing up for the popular text of the day, in combat against the perceived heretical books of the Gnostics.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Secret Alias »

So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these [documents], each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine [identification of the pre-existent association between Matthew, Luke, Mark, John with pre-existent heretical groups and then] Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true. It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Secret Alias »

Because the 4 were already popular :facepalm:
Why are you so dense look at the quote - they were associated with the heretics, no one else. There is no mention of any popularity of the four texts in the Church at all. the Holy Spirit established the four gospels with the four heretics in corrupt form as a way of heralding the eventual bringing together of the four as a set by Irenaeus. There's nothing here about any 'popularity' in the Catholic Church. Irenaeus's whole doctrine echoes Polycarp's notion of a period of heresy where the four holy texts were corrupted as the heresies spread like tares on the earth - the texts and orthodox being reconstituted in a later age, like Ezra whom Irenaeus uses as another example of the Holy Spirit rescuing texts from corruption and the LXX too. READ IRENAEUS YOU'D KNOW THESE THINGS!!!!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Secret Alias »

There is no evidence whatsoever for a canonical set of four before the four heresies (arbat ha minim = ארבעת המינים‎). The existence of these four 'species' (Leviticus 23:40) is a sign of the correctness of the 'fourness' of the gospels:
So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these, each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true. It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are ...
Someone making this argument had to exist in an age AFTER the "four species" were already established not before!

Then after this Irenaeus speaks a whole bunch of nonsense to support this 'Biblical argument' -
For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the "pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sitteth upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit.
The argument that Irenaeus brings forward to edify HIS RECENT 'CANONIZING' of a 'quadriform gospel' is developed from neo-Pythagorean notions of the mystical nature of number four. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THERE ABOUT 'POPULARITY' IN THE CHURCH!!!!!!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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