The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bingo
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:08 am

Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:The passage is ambiguous because elohim is used twice and el once and elohim bears a relation to el so one can translate the material a number of different ways and the passage IS TRANSLATED a number of different ways. There is no right answer.
Well – I understand your point. Nevertheless the original psalmist had something specific in mind. He did not intend to be "ambiguous". So to say "there is no right answer" is (IMHO) a little bit missing the point.

Fwiw methinks Psalm 82 originally began “Yahweh stands in the assembly of El.” If one accepts that as an axiom, then everything else falls cleanly into place – and it matches the paradigm in Deut 32:8-9.

Of course I am aware of no direct evidence to support my hypothesis – but compare Psalm 14:1-2 against Psalm 53:1-2. Somebody was in there – either replacing “Yahweh” with “Elohim” or the other way around.
Psalm 14:2
Yahweh looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek Elohim.
Psalm 53:2
Elohim looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek Elohim.
Do you see what I mean?
Last edited by Bingo on Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bingo
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:08 am

Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:And Psalm 82:6 is often cited to denote the fact that humans are meant by 'elohim.'
Well yea. But who really cares what the others think? Be realistic: We live in a world where 58% of Americans believe that Jesus will probably return by 2050. :facepalm:
Secret Alias wrote:Perhaps we are dealing with two classes of human beings after the gnostic manner. This is the sense of various statements in Philo where Yahweh is the god of 'bad men' (Jacob) and Elohim those who are 'improving' (towards divinity? = Elohim).
Maybe. But we should definitely allow for the possibility that Philo was just absolutely fucking clueless as to what the original Psalmist meant when he/she wrote Psalm 82.

You agree?
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

While it is true that the original author had something definitive in mind whenever he wrote whatever he wrote, ambiguity has crept into our manuscripts. It is unlikely that Elohim is the problem. There was a tendency to substitute Yahweh in place of Elohim according to the dogma of the dominant orthodoxy (i.e. that Yahweh was the only god) rather than the other way around. Interestingly the Qumran text here does show the opposite tendency (i.e. substituting El for Yahweh in the next citation). But that was likely because the Yahwehist dogma (monotheism) hadn't been fully consolidated or didn't even exist then. The divine names originally belonged to different parts of the godhead. I am pretty sure of that.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bingo
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:08 am

Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:...It is unlikely that Elohim is the problem.
As you have said - there are two instances of the word Elohim in Psalm 82.1. The first instance appears to refer to the one true god (aka “God”). The second instance appears to mean “gods.” So lemme ask ya this: Can you identify any other passage in the OT where both usages are applied in such close proximity?

Don’t you think that’s unusual?

IMHO I think it deserves an explaination.

If both instances were in the original then the Psalmist would certainly realize that his/her psalm was a little confusing.

Right?

Methinks the first instance of ‘Elohim’ was a late substitute for ‘Yahweh’. Or if the original didn’t read ‘Yahweh’ then maybe it read ‘Baal’ or ‘Hadad’.

For example:
Baal stands in the assembly of El. Among the gods he renders judgement.”
Or:
Hadad stands in the assembly of El. Among the gods he renders judgement.”
Or:
Yahweh stands in the assembly of El. Among the gods he renders judgement.”
See what I mean?

It makes perfect sense.

Doesn’t it? :scratch:

I’m having trouble finding a simpler / more straightforward explanation.

How about you?
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