The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by MrMacSon »

Secret Alias wrote:I've always played with the idea that Theodore of Byzantium (= Clement of Alexandria) and Victor (= Irenaeus). When Adv Haer keeps speaking about Jesus and Christ being treated as separate beings because of the Gospel of Mark he is betraying the doctrines of Theodotus.
Interesting! Theodotus/Theodore developed what was called 'adoptionism'?

eta: Victor = Irenaeus would explain 'Irenaeus' being literally such an outlier: ie. sitting way out West, out of early-Christianity's 'geographic axis'
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

The only argument supporting the identification of Clement with Theodotos is that the Excerpts are bound together with Clement's writings. There are many arguments for identifying Victor with Irenaeus. Irenaeus's writings are strangely authoritative - they have an 'ex cathedra' quality. Irenaeus is reported to have worked with Victor. But against the identification is the following:
There is one more fragment of Irenaeus that is generally regarded as authentic, and that is a fragment of a letter sent by Irenaeus to Pope Victor preserved in a Syriac manuscript. The fragment is introduced: "And Irenaeus Bp. of Lyons, to Victor Bp. of Rome, concerning Florinus, a presbyter, who was a partisan of the error of Valentinus, and published an abominable book, thus wrote." Here is the Roberts-Donaldson translation in Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume one (fragment LI).

"Now, however, inasmuch as the books of these men may possibly have escaped your observation, but have come under our notice, I call your attention to them, that for the sake of your reputation you may expel these writings from among you, as bringing disgrace upon you, since their author boasts himself as being one of your company. For they constitute a stumbling-block to many, who simply and unreservedly receive, as coming from a presbyter, the blasphemy which they utter against God. Just [consider] the writer of these things, how by means of them he does not injure assistants [in divine service] only, who happen to be prepared in mind for blasphemies against God, but also damages those among us, since by his books he imbues their minds with false doctrines concerning God."

Four fragments published by Pfaff in 1715, numbered XXXVI through XXXIX, have been shown to be forgeries by Funk and Harnack. The other fragments published in Ante-Nicene Fathers are of dubious provenance, but it is worthwhile to mention a couple along with the notes of Roberts-Donaldson on their sources.

Fragment IV is footnoted: "Quoted by Maximus Bishop of Turin, A.D. 422, Serm. vii. de Eleemos., as from the Epistle to Pope Victor. It is also found in some other ancient writers."

Here is fragment IV: "As long as any one has the means of doing good to his neighbours, and does not do so, he shall be reckoned a stranger to the love of the Lord."
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bingo
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:You are confusing the pesher and the original texts. It is explicit that a being named Elohim judges the divine beings and a being named Yahweh judges men:
Elohim will stand in the assembly of God, in the midst of the gods he judges

And above it to the heights, return: Yahweh will judge the peoples
I’m confused.

What document are you citing here?

What document contains those two phrases?

Seriously.
Bingo
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:Psalm 82 explicitly has Yahweh judge mankind and Elohim the gods.
I’m sorry to have to repeat this question – but I’m really confused.

Where does Psalm 82 explicitly use the name Yahweh?

The reason I ask is because I’m not an expert on this stuff (I learn new things all the time). And if there is some version of Psalm 82 that does explicitly use the name – then I would be very interested in knowing about it.

Thanks in advance for clairifying this issue.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes in my haste I wrote 'Psalm 82' when I should have said '11QMelk cites two Psalms.' My error.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bingo
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:Yes in my haste I wrote 'Psalm 82' when I should have said '11QMelk cites two Psalms.' My error.
Cool.

Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbup:

That possibility had crossed my mind.
Bingo
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Since I have your attention let me ask you this: Are you familiar with this paper?

EL AS THE SPEAKING VOICE IN PSALM 82:6–8
In the following paragraphs we will argue that the above reading of Psalm 82 does not adequately account for the peculiarities in the text. In our view, these are best accounted for by the assumption that El, far from being a literary relic, or a shadowy figure, plays a prominent role next to YHWH in the drama of the Psalm. While YHWH is the speaker, who plays the role of prosecutor of then gods and advocate of the exploited in vv 2–4, El is the speaker, who plays the role of high judge in vv 6–8. It is El who appointed the deities to his council (v 6), and it is he who finally condemns them to death (v 7). Most important, it is El who calls upon YHWH at the end of the Psalm to rule the world in place of the gods, bestowing upon YHWH the inheritances of those gods he just condemned (v 8). The Psalm depicts El as the deity of the highest rank, with YHWH as his new appointee to the world. In sum, the Psalm reflects a theology that is much more divergent from normative forms of biblical Yahwism than has hitherto been recognized.
The idea that El could be an actual speaker in Psalm 82 has probably never even been seriously contemplated because it is so
unorthodox for the Hebrew Bible from a canonical perspective.
IMHO it sounds like Frankel hit the nail on the head. :thumbup:
Bingo
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:And the line you reference isn't limited to 11QMelk. It's the standard reading of Psalm 82:1

Elohim will stand in his assembly god in the midst of the gods he judges

Doesn't say anything I can see about Elohim judging man.
Does 11QMelk really read “… will stand in his assembly?” :wtf:

Is “will stand in his assembly” really the ‘standard’ reading? :scratch:

The reason I ask is because the translation that I posted doesn’t translate it like that. The translation I posted reads as follows:
For this is the moment of the Year of Grace for Melchizedek. [And h]e will, by his strength, judge the holy ones of God, executing judgement as it is written concerning him in the Songs of David, who said, ELOHIM has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgement…
Do you see the difference? :eek:

Elohim will stand in his assembly” is not the same as “ELOHIM has taken his place in the divine council ”.

Is it? :scratch:

It’s an issue of past tense v. future tense.

Right?

It’s also an issue of “who’s council is it?”

Right?

So imagine my consfusion.

So come clean. Please explain why you changed it. :evil:

Just answer honestly.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

The passage is ambiguous because elohim is used twice and el once and elohim bears a relation to el so one can translate the material a number of different ways and the passage IS TRANSLATED a number of different ways. There is no right answer. Clearly the first elohim can't be the same as the second elohim so various translations (NAS and the standard Jewish translation) assume that it should be read "in his own congregation" and that the second elohim are the judges of Israel. I can see a scenario where the second elohim means angels.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

And Psalm 82:6 is often cited to denote the fact that humans are meant by 'elohim.' Perhaps we are dealing with two classes of human beings after the gnostic manner. This is the sense of various statements in Philo where Yahweh is the god of 'bad men' (Jacob) and Elohim those who are 'improving' (towards divinity? = Elohim).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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