The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bingo
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:I wish people actually ... had some familiarity with the Jewish beliefs in the first century. It was common to believe that Yahweh = judgement, Elohim = mercy, goodness.
What are your thoughts on the Melchizedek Scroll? (11QMelchizedek)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11Q13

That scroll cites Psalm 82 to identify Elohim as a judging god, and then goes on to delegate Elohim’s judging authority to Melchizedek.

How does the Melchizedek Scroll fit in with your hypothesis?
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

How is it 'my hypothesis' when it is what Philo explicitly tells us over and over again?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

And the line you reference isn't limited to 11QMelk. It's the standard reading of Psalm 82:1

Elohim will stand in his assembly god in the midst of the gods he judges

Doesn't say anything I can see about Elohim judging man.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bingo
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Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:08 am

Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Dude - it’s just a figure of speech so get over it. It is “your hypothesis” because you are the one who started the thread. Afaik Philo is not a member of this forum.
Secret Alias wrote: Doesn't say anything I can see about Elohim judging man.
Right. Nevertheless it complicates your hypothesis (there I said it again just to piss you off) because now you have to explain why Elohim judges gods but not men.

In a nutshell – I was just curious to see if you are familiar with the scroll. And at this point I conclude that you are not. And your ignorance of the scroll sort of rubs up against your criticism of other people who you wish “had some familiarity with the Jewish beliefs in the first century.”
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

So you are saying that I had no familiarity with a scroll that confirms my understanding of gospel = announcement of the Jubilee? Give me a break. Why does it complicate anything. Psalm 82 explicitly has Yahweh judge mankind and Elohim the gods. I don't know why this was developed but (a) the Psalms are not on the same level of holiness as the Torah (they are not recognized by the Samaritans) and (b) Philo says what Philo says. It's not 'my hypothesis' for crying out loud!!! It's an attested and extremely ancient interpretation which I have applied to near contemporary Marcionism because Irenaeus makes explicit IT IS THE MARCIONITE UNDERSTANDING OF THE GODHEAD :banghead:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bingo
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Bingo »

Secret Alias wrote:Psalm 82 explicitly has Yahweh judge mankind and Elohim the gods.
Explicitly? :wtf:

Dude - what have you been smoking?

No “Jah Jah” in ps 82. :eek:
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

You are confusing the pesher and the original texts. It is explicit that a being named Elohim judges the divine beings and a being named Yahweh judges men:
Elohim will stand in the assembly of God, in the midst of the gods he judges

And above it to the heights, return: Yahweh will judge the peoples


I don't see how this can be described as anything other than 'explicit.' It is natural to assume different names apply to different beings or things.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

And if you want my opinion of the Qumran text I think it attests to the identification of Melchizedek as a mediating divinity who was understood to take over the function of both Yahweh and Elohim, much like the angel of the presence (they are one and the same).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

The reason why Melchizedek is understood to be superior to Christ in the Refutation is because Christ is 'according to the image' of Melchizedek (so also Epiphanius). What is meant here by kat' eikona is made clear by Pseudo-Tertullian shows that the sect believed that Melchizedek had the role of intercessor and advocate for the angels whereas Christ had the same role for men. Pseudo-Tertullian also shows us how to resolve another tension between the Refutation and the 'Little Labyrinth". Hippolytus informs us that the Melchizedekians arose as a splinter group out of the Theodotians, led by one Theodotus the banker. When next we see Theodotus the banker in the 'Little Labyrinth' he is the disciple of Theodotus of Byzantium, carrying on his word by organizing a sect. Pseudo-Tertullian may solve this difficulty for us by showing us that there never was a sect of Theodotians per se other than perhaps a circle of people who agreed with the doctrine of Theodotus of Byzantium. The only sect organized was that by Theodotus the banker who agreed with the adoptionist Christology of Theodotus of Byzantium, but who added to this Christology a theory about the heavenly role of Melchizedek. When Theodotus of Byzantium was excommunicated by Victor, the leadership of the ' dynamic monarchian ' position fell to Theodotus the banker who took steps to remove the following of Theodotus of Byzantium from the control of the church in Rome, organizing a schismatic sect. This theory explains our three main sources for the Melchizedekian heresy: the Refutation, the 'Little Labyrinth', and Pseudo-Tertullian. According to this view it would be proper to use the words ' Theodotian ' and ' Melchizedekian only as positions within the 'dynamic monarchian' movement started by Theodotus of Byzantium. The Refutation reflects only the situation as it existed before the excommunication of Theodotus of Byzantium, whereas the 'Little Labyrinth" and Pseudo-Tertullian represent a later situation in which an actual sect of 'dynamic monarchians' had been organized by Theodotus the banker. Following Pseudo-Tertullian, we might hold that this sect thought of Melchizedek as a superior heavenly power whose function in the heavens was recapitulated or reflected in the work of Christ on earth. Once we have dispensed with the misleading (but up to now necessary) designation 'Melchizedekians' for this sect, we may legitimately question whether this doctrine was in any way fundamental to the sect, or the belief was made more of by those who wrote in opposition to the sect in an effort to retain the distinction made initially by Hippolytus in the Refutation. [Horton, The Melchizedek Tradition p. 96, 97]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Marcionite Tradition was Jewish

Post by Secret Alias »

I've always played with the idea that Theodore of Byzantium (= Clement of Alexandria) and Victor (= Irenaeus). When Adv Haer keeps speaking about Jesus and Christ being treated as separate beings because of the Gospel of Mark he is betraying the doctrines of Theodotus.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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