Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

I am setting aside some money next month to buy books, with an emphasis on books with lots of information that will serve as good reference guides. (I am also majoring on books that I cannot obtain from my local Interlibrary Loan program; however, there is no way any of you will know which books are or are not available to me locally, so never mind that.) My other main criterion is: books that best represent the current state of the HJ/MJ debate on a scholarly level and in various aspects (even if indirect, such as dealing with the Marcionite texts); however, I listed my information criterion first because I do not want books that are principally summaries of current arguments; rather, I want the current arguments themselves, with all the data presented.

My list so far includes, in no particular order:
  • Richard Carrier, On the Historicity of Jesus.
  • Jason BeDuhn, The First New Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon.
  • Robert M. Price, The Pre-Nicene New Testament: Fifty-four Formative Texts.
  • Gerd Theissen and Annette Merz, The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide.
(I am not at all interested, by the way, in D. M. Murdock, Freke & Gandy, and the like.)

What other books are there which pertain to the HJ/MJ debate and offer loads of information? Any suggestions?

Ben.
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by Secret Alias »

I have not been keeping up to date on how the 'destroy Christianity vs defend Christian disguised as mythicism/historicity' has been played out in recent printed books. I apologize for this neglect. My mother has cancer. I have been busy at work and at home. But let me say as a smaller defense that I am ultimately quite disinterested in what people who have little feel for what was possible in 'mythologizing Jewish communities' in the Near East. I can't help but notice attractive females on the internet (they are used to sell everything) although - I have to confess - I loathe tattoos. It is a bias on my part I admit but I can't deal with tattoos. Just the way it is.

At least part of my disinterest in 'white mythicists' in that I come from a markedly different culture than theseapologists for atheism and 'old time religion.' While I might be missing out on some valuable 'nuggets' in these books which develop from a contemporary atheist vs traditional religion debate, I think that the place to start is here http://www.jstor.org/stable/1584033 and then putting together the pieces of what Marcionism is/was and related religious forms in the near East. But I've said this before and will continue to say it but apparently the pull of white cultural narcissism is stronger than my previous appeals.

If I may say one more thing, let me justify the significance of Baarda's article and work in general in a sentence or two:
Jesus was portrayed as descending from heaven and flying away from (or passing through) a hostile Jewish crowd who plunge to their death owing to their aggressive behavior against Jesus in two separate and hostile traditions in the middle of the second century
How could this possibly have developed from a minimally historical Jesus? Drop the white assumptions and we might make progress on figuring out whether Jesus was a god or man (or a man-God/God called Man).
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by Secret Alias »

And before I have to respond to the usual defense of mythicism, let me ask the people of the forum whether 'mythicism' in its contemporary form is a product of a discernible 'white' (non-Semitic) cultural starting point. Read Guy Stroumsa for crying out loud if you deny the proposition. It's just a matter of not being exposed to real scholarship in the field or closely related fields. It's like to an apartment block where two parties are going on in two different rooms, side by side. In one room people are dancing and listening to the music of one culture and in the room with the white party people are sitting around drinking listening to some horrible rock music. Different cultures produce different cultural relics. Scholarship in the west is reducible to post-modern degenerate white society. The only way to deny this is to deny that 'the West' is white or developed from white people.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Secret Alias
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by Secret Alias »

Here's an idea. Let's get rid of all people who grew up in white religion and white culture - in effect outsource the study of western religious forms to the Indians and Chinese and see whether they come to the same conclusions as people still dealing with the religion of mom and dad.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by Secret Alias »

The task is and always will be to figure out Marcionism beyond the usual retarded discussions of 'whether Luke or the gospel of Marcion was original.' In other words, treat the Marcionites as a 'tribe' a living cultural relic like a bunch of native people discovered in the Amazon. That a neighboring tribe in the Amazon said that this new tribe were produced from an illicit union between a disgraced former chief and a chicken is mostly not useful. Get into their culture, piece together where they came from, where they lived, their cultural habits. Why isn't this done with the Marcionites? Because it's not about figuring out what people who died Jesus's humanity; it's about us.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by perseusomega9 »

Ben C. Smith wrote:

[*]Robert M. Price, The Pre-Nicene New Testament: Fifty-four Formative Texts.



Ben.
While I have and enjoy that book, it's mostly a collection of canonical and non-canonical texts that Price uses to create a new New Testament. Each text is prefaced with a commentary essay, but by far it's the texts themselves in his translation. If you want his current arguments, you might want to look into his Amazing Colossal Apostle or The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. His bible geek podcast is also a fun listen.
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by MrMacSon »

Secret Alias wrote:The task is and always will be to figure out Marcionism beyond the usual retarded discussions of 'whether Luke or the gospel of Marcion was original.' In other words, treat the Marcionites as a 'tribe' a living cultural relic ... Get into their culture, piece together where they came from, where they lived, their cultural habits. Why isn't this done with the Marcionites? ...
I agree. Anthropology should be the foundation for this; especially as it played out differently in different locations over time.
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by Peter Kirby »

There are not really any good books on the subject, which will not also lead you down useless tangents. It's an interesting subject partly because of the inadequacy of existing work.

Recently I found some value going through Burton Mack's A Myth of Innocence with a pencil. Still one of the landmarks of scholarship, with a comprehensive and cogently presented presentation of the early Jesus movements. I believe it is useful for being (a) an excellent 'historical Jesus' thesis and (b) clearly the primary jumping off point for Doherty.

Carrier and Doherty's books will let you speak to the 'best' published work, but the best could be better in this case.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:There are not really any good books on the subject, which will not also lead you down useless tangents. It's an interesting subject partly because of the inadequacy of existing work.
Well, bear in mind the connection can be indirect; I do not expect a lot of explicit HJ/MJ argumentation from BeDuhn.
Recently I found some value going through Burton Mack's A Myth of Innocence with a pencil. Still one of the landmarks of scholarship, with a comprehensive and cogently presented presentation of the early Jesus movements. I believe it is useful for being (a) an excellent 'historical Jesus' thesis and (b) clearly the primary jumping off point for Doherty.
Thanks.

Ben.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Recommended HJ/MJ books?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

perseusomega9 wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:Robert M. Price, The Pre-Nicene New Testament: Fifty-four Formative Texts.
While I have and enjoy that book, it's mostly a collection of canonical and non-canonical texts that Price uses to create a new New Testament. Each text is prefaced with a commentary essay, but by far it's the texts themselves in his translation. If you want his current arguments, you might want to look into his Amazing Colossal Apostle or The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. His bible geek podcast is also a fun listen.
Thanks for this feedback. I was indeed expecting more in the way of commentary.

Ben.
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