But then, I guess you think Rom 16 is original.Bernard Muller wrote:I do not think a city (Corinth) fully destroyed by the Romans, mostly in ruins since that time and not yet founded again would have an "oikonomos" of the city (Romans 16:23).
Textual Criticism of Romans 16
Textual Criticism of Romans 16
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
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Re: Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket c
Spin:
Cordially, Bernard
Yes, but I have plenty of doubts for 16:25-27.But then, I guess you think Rom 16 is original.
Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket c
Check the location of the doxology in P.46.Bernard Muller wrote:Spin:Yes, but I have plenty of doubts for 16:25-27.But then, I guess you think Rom 16 is original.
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Re: Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket c
I knew already about the erratic locations and sometimes absences of Romans 16:25-27 in ancient manuscripts. Furthermore the wording & style are unlike Paul's and "the preaching of Jesus Christ" seems to indicate a knowledge of the gospels.Check the location of the doxology in P.46.
For everyone to see, about p.46., from http://web.ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay15rom.htm:
However 16:1-24 is included.Romans 16:25-27:
...
NOTES: omit verses 25-27 here but include them at the end of chapter 15
EVIDENCE: p46
TRANSLATIONS: NEBn TEVn
Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket c
Now explain the phenomen. Did someone leave out the cover letter, but copied the doxology, and then realizing the issue, stuck it on the end?? Did the scribe decide off his own bat that the doxology went better at the end of ch.15??Bernard Muller wrote:I knew already about the erratic locations and sometimes absences of Romans 16:25-27 in ancient manuscripts. Furthermore the wording & style are unlike Paul's and "the preaching of Jesus Christ" seems to indicate a knowledge of the gospels.Check the location of the doxology in P.46.
For everyone to see, about p.46., from http://web.ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay15rom.htm:However 16:1-24 is included.Romans 16:25-27:
...
NOTES: omit verses 25-27 here but include them at the end of chapter 15
EVIDENCE: p46
TRANSLATIONS: NEBn TEVn
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
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Re: Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket c
I do not know.Now explain the phenomen. Did someone leave out the cover letter, but copied the doxology, and then realizing the issue, stuck it on the end?? Did the scribe decide off his own bat that the doxology went better at the end of ch.15??
Look at the webpage I gave you. There are all kinds of variations for the ending of Romans. One of the most numerous is the doxology being placed at the end of chapter 14. Romans 16:1-24 (with whole of chapter 15) is reported missing in three manuscripts:
From that webpage,Three vulgate manuscripts omit chapter 15:1 through 16:23.
Draw your conclusions about that mess if you can.Romans 16:24:
TEXT: omit verse 24
EVIDENCE: p46 p61 S A B C 81 1739 one lat earlier vg cop
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV
RANK: B
NOTES: include verse 24: "·The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with plyou all. Amen."
EVIDENCE: D G (omit "Jesus Christ") Psi 614 630 1241 1881 2495 Byz Lect most lat later vg syr(h)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASVn RSVn NASVn NIVn NEBn TEVn
NOTES: include verse 24 after verse 27 instead of here
EVIDENCE: P 33 104 syr(p)
TRANSLATIONS: NEBn TEVn
COMMENTS: The oldest manuscripts have this sentence at the end of verse 20. Some manuscripts moved it here and others combined the two by having it both places. See the comments above. A few manuscripts have it both at the end of verse 20 and at the end of verse 27.
Romans 16:25-27:
TEXT: include verses 25-27 here
EVIDENCE: p61vid S B C D 81 630 1739 most lat most vg {syr(p)} cop
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV
RANK: C
NOTES: include verses 25-27 both here and at the end of chapter 14
EVIDENCE: p61? A {P 33 104}
TRANSLATIONS: TEVn
NOTES: omit verses 25-27 here but include them at the end of chapter 14
EVIDENCE: L Psi 614 1241 1881 2495 Byz one lat syr(h)
TRANSLATIONS: ASVn NEBn TEVn
NOTES: omit verses 25-27 here but include them at the end of chapter 15.
EVIDENCE: p46
TRANSLATIONS: NEBn TEVn
NOTES: omit verses 25-27 altogether
EVIDENCE: F G (both Greek and Latin--but leave space at the end of chapter 14) 629
TRANSLATIONS: ASVn NEBn
COMMENTS: Verses 25-27 are enclosed in brackets in the UBS text, since they are missing here from many manuscripts. They are included here by early manuscripts of several kinds of ancient text. See also the comments on Romans 14:23 and 15:33. The evidence listed in braces inserts verse 24 following these verses. Manuscript p61 only contains Romans 16:23-27. Three vulgate manuscripts omit chapter 15:1 through 16:23.
Romans 16:27:
TEXT: "·to the only wise God, to him [be] glory"
EVIDENCE: p46 S A C D {P} Psi 33 {81 104} 614 1241 1739 1881 2495 Byz Lect most lat vg {syr(h)} cop
TRANSLATIONS: ASV NEBn
RANK: C
NOTES: "·to the only wise God [be] glory"
EVIDENCE: B 630 one lat syr(p)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASVn RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV
COMMENTS: The words "to him" are literally "to whom" which makes for a difficult grammatical construction. The evidence listed in braces changes it to "to him" to make it easier. A few manuscripts removed the grammatical difficulty by omitting it altogether.
Cordially, Bernard
PS: Maybe that discussion should become another thread.
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Re: Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket c
Done.Bernard Muller wrote:PS: Maybe that discussion should become another thread.
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Re: Textual Criticism of Romans 16
I just remember I have a blog post (which may need revision) on the subject. Apparently, Marcion's version of Romans did not have chapters 15 & 16. And there is more to it:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p64.htm
Cordially, Bernard
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p64.htm
Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Re: Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket c
Christ, Bernard, you're just going to leave it there? Not a thought about it?Bernard Muller wrote:I do not know.Now explain the phenomen. Did someone leave out the cover letter, but copied the doxology, and then realizing the issue, stuck it on the end?? Did the scribe decide off his own bat that the doxology went better at the end of ch.15??
Do you think I just pulled this issue out of my [..], that you can whip up a handy-dandy site of internet to solve the problem?Bernard Muller wrote:Look at the webpage I gave you.
I don't know if "one of the most frequent" is true, but you need to go with the quality of the manuscript witness rather than the quantity. The reason why I mentioned P.46 is because it is probably the oldest testimony we have on the issue (c.200). There is no better, so it must be dealt with.Bernard Muller wrote:There are all kinds of variations for the ending of Romans. One of the most numerous is the doxology being placed at the end of chapter 14.
You should gather I already have. I was trying to get you to draw some conclusions rather than swerve to avoid it.Bernard Muller wrote:Romans 16:1-24 (with whole of chapter 15) is reported missing in three manuscripts:
{Mess omitted}
Draw your conclusions about that mess if you can.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
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Re: Textual Criticism of Romans 16
P.46 has Romans 16:1-23 in it. That might not work for you.The reason why I mentioned P.46 is because it is probably the oldest testimony we have on the issue (c.200). There is no better, so it must be dealt with.
I drew already my conclusions: Romans 16:25-27 is out (interpolation) and Romans 15:1 to 16:24 is in (authentic).
As stated in my blog post. You should study "the mess" before making your conclusions. Every bit of data counts.
Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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