Did the Church Fathers Really Take ΙΣ = Jesus?

[Stephan Huller]

I too would like to know about this Platonic (are you sure it's not neo-Platonic) expectation for the coming of the perfect man. It would fit in nicely with Clement's treatment of Barnabas chapters 5 and 6. Clement seems to think that both Jews and Plato shared the expectation of the revelation of the ideal man. I just don't know where Plato says this. Barnabas's point is to get these groups to agree that this being would be revealed as a suffering divine man - no small hurdle

[Peter Kirby]

I too would like to know about this Platonic (are you sure it's not neo-Platonic) expectation for the coming of the perfect man.

Generally speaking the term used in scholarship, after the death of Plato, is either Platonism or Middle Platonism.

Neo-Platonism is defined as 3rd century or later.

The point here is that Plato's program for souls reaching the rest of heaven involves self-improvement, good living, contemplation of beauty, philosophy, and most likely having to suffer many lives along the way. Plato did not offer an easy option for escape.* That would be what you call an innovation.

If you like comparative religion...

This is basically the same relationship between more-original Buddhism ( Theravada) and the later development of Buddhism ( Mahayana), with the help of a Bodhisattva making things easier--instead of doing all the hard work of reaching enlightenment yourself, you could piggyback on a being much more excellent than you are, on the way to nirvana already.

* And if you were a woman, you knew you were in for at least one more ride through life (reborn a man) before having any chance at all . . .

[Peter Kirby]

BTW, I cannot but help think that the Greek fascination with the male nude was related to this platonic concept of contemplating the ideal form and beauty. As if looking at a well-built man helped ones soul get closer to perfection.

(But then I don't study Greek art so this has possibly been said before.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z8UrmmuJS5wC&pg=PT108


Of course, offering women and men a chance for direct salvation was appealing to both... but perhaps especially appealing to women. Many have commented on how Christianity gave women a greater role than most organizations did, at least early on out.

[Clive]

All the heavens and the earth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvian_Man

Encyclopaedia Britannica online states, "Leonardo envisaged the great picture chart of the human body he had produced through his anatomical drawings and Vitruvian Man as a cosmografia del minor mondo (cosmography of the microcosm). He believed the workings of the human body to be an analogy for the workings of the universe."

[Peter Kirby]

All the heavens and the earth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvian_Man

Encyclopaedia Britannica online states, "Leonardo envisaged the great picture chart of the human body he had produced through his anatomical drawings and Vitruvian Man as a cosmografia del minor mondo (cosmography of the microcosm). He believed the workings of the human body to be an analogy for the workings of the universe."

That's an ancient Stoic idea ("the workings of the human body to be an analogy for the workings of the universe").

[Clive]

The Horned God is one of the two primary deities found in Wicca and some related pagan religions. He represents the male part of the religion's duotheistic theological system, the other part being the female Triple Goddess or other Mother Goddess.[1] In common Wiccan belief, he is associated with nature, wilderness, sexuality, hunting, and the life cycle.[2]:32–34 Whilst depictions of the deity vary, he is always shown with either horns or antlers upon his head, often depicted as being theriocephalic (having a beast's head), in this way emphasizing "the union of the divine and the animal", the latter of which includes humanity.[3]:11

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_God

It sounds like the god IS is another variant of a well trodden path.

[Clive]

The Green Man motif has many variations. Found in many cultures from many ages around the world, the Green Man is often related to natural vegetative deities. It is primarily interpreted as a symbol of rebirth, representing the cycle of growth each spring. Some[1][2] speculate that the mythology of the Green Man developed independently in the traditions of separate ancient cultures and evolved into the wide variety of examples found throughout history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man

And is the cross vegetation growing out of the IS?

[Clive]

I am the vine

[Clive]

All the heavens and the earth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvian_Man

Encyclopaedia Britannica online states, "Leonardo envisaged the great picture chart of the human body he had produced through his anatomical drawings and Vitruvian Man as a cosmografia del minor mondo (cosmography of the microcosm). He believed the workings of the human body to be an analogy for the workings of the universe."

That's an ancient Stoic idea ("the workings of the human body to be an analogy for the workings of the universe").

I agree, I used Da Vinci as an example of how ideas get reused over time.

[Clive]

Is it possible to track when and where and possibly why "Jesus" or "Joshua" replaced the heavenly man?

And to reread the new testament as attempts to describe the heavenly man - Immanuel, vine, logos, way....