About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. . .

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Giuseppe
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About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. . .

Post by Giuseppe »

I read this:
In any case, the knowledge that the educated portion of the heathen world, so far as it was religious at all, was permeated with a philosphical theology not unlike that which could be stated as the essence of their own religion, furnished the cosmopolitan Jews with an excellent opening for proselytising. The claim could be made to instruct the multitude authoritatively in a wisdom long recognised by the few in their own lands. Besides, the Jews came from the East, to which the peoples of the West were accustomed to look as the home of esoteric mysteries. One form which proselitism took was accordingly the writing of those Greek compositions in verse known as the Sibylline Oracles, The Cumaean, or some other Sibyl was represented as proclaiming the superiority of the Jewish religion to all others, the falsity of ''idols'' and the identity of the God of the Jews with the God of the universe. Beyond their pure teism, the Sibylline books contained Messianic elements.
Hence they came to be much appealed to on behalf of Christianity; for which reason Celsus, in his True Word addressed to the Christians, gave them the name of ''Sybillists''.
(Thomas Whittaker, The Origins of Christianity, p. 17-18)
And this:
...it is interestig to compare a Messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles, translated by the Rev. W. J. Deane as follows: ''Now a certain excellent man shall come again from heaven, who spread forth his hands upon the very fruitful tree, the best of the Hebrews, who once made the sun stand still, speaking with beauteous words and pure lips''. Here, as Mr. Robertson would say, we observe the conception passing into that of the Teaching God. The ''very fruitful tree'' (or ''tree of fair fruit'') has reference, of course, to that sacrificial idea of which the implications have been brought out by Mr. Frazer in The Golden Bough.
(p.27-28, my corsive)


How is possible that this prophecy from Sibylline Oracles, if indeed that is the correct translation, is gone so unnoticed by mythicists?

Here we have in nuce all the elements of later myth:

1) the tree could be the same tree on which Jesus was hanged according to the Talmud.

2) the ''his hands'' outstretched on the tree remind partially the similar theme of stretched arms present in the Odes of Solomon (that prof Davies considers pre-christian). Needless to say that the figure on the tree resembles too closely the crucified.

3) ''...the best of the Hebrews, who once made the sun stand still,'' , a implicit reference to Joshua (=Jesus) ?

4) the idea that a mythological deity teaches.

Questions:
What you think about that prophecy of Sibylline Oracles?
When and where do you date that text?
Can be that prophecy the first embrional ''Christian'' myth, older than any sacred drama about Jesus?
And if was it written in Diaspora, would it be the ''missing link'' who some Greeks take for the reversal of the messianic concept of Joshua ( from ''national salvation'' to ''individual salvation'' by a god who dies and rises again)?

Thanks for any reply
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Peter Kirby »

...it is interestig to compare a Messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles, translated by the Rev. W. J. Deane as follows: ''Now a certain excellent man shall come again from heaven, who spread forth his hands upon the very fruitful tree, the best of the Hebrews, who once made the sun stand still, speaking with beauteous words and pure lips''. Here, as Mr. Robertson would say, we observe the conception passing into that of the Teaching God. The ''very fruitful tree'' (or ''tree of fair fruit'') has reference, of course, to that sacrificial idea of which the implications have been brought out by Mr. Frazer in The Golden Bough.
It is one of the items surveyed by Kraft in his (apparently controversial) essay.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/ ... ity/Joshua
Again, there is a tantalizingly ambiguous passage in Sib.Or.
5.256ff, which Charles dates from c. 130 CE.

<block>
Then there shall come from the sky a certain
exalted man whose hands he spread out upon the fruitful tree,
The noblest of the Hebrews who caused the sun to stand still
When he cries with fair speech and pure lips.

</block>

The context in which these lines occur (247-85) presents a
"Jewish eulogy" (Pfeiffer) over the perfect eschatological land.
Charles thinks our passage is Christian interpolation, referring
to the failure of sunlight at the crucifixion (Lk 23.44), and
emends the words "he spread out" (<g>H(/PLWSEN</g>) to "they
nailed" (<g>H(/LWSAN</g>), thus clinching his view! Other
commentators accept most of the passage as Jewish. Billerbeck (to
Mt 1.1), for example, sees Joshua here designated as a future
Messiah, although he thinks the reference to the hands spread out
on the fruitful tree is a Christian addition. Volz, writing on
the Eschatology of Judaism in NT times (1934\2), tends to agree.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Giuseppe
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Giuseppe »

To be honest, wanting read a priori with Christian lens that passage, my first thought was of Joshua stopping the sun, but seen as an ideal of Christian Jesus.
The problem is why a Christian would invent a prophecy of Christ to come the first time on Earth? I usually see Christians resort to the old prophecies (making them say what they do not say), not intent to create new ones and then say that have been 'realized' (unless they were referring to Second Coming of Christ, but does not seem to be the case here).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:It is one of the items surveyed by Kraft in his (apparently controversial) essay.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/ ... ity/Joshua
Again, there is a tantalizingly ambiguous passage in Sib.Or.
5.256ff, which Charles dates from c. 130 CE.

<block>
Then there shall come from the sky a certain
exalted man whose hands he spread out upon the fruitful tree,
The noblest of the Hebrews who caused the sun to stand still
When he cries with fair speech and pure lips.

</block>

The context in which these lines occur (247-85) presents a
"Jewish eulogy" (Pfeiffer) over the perfect eschatological land.
Charles thinks our passage is Christian interpolation, referring
to the failure of sunlight at the crucifixion (Lk 23.44), and
emends the words "he spread out" (<g>H(/PLWSEN</g>) to "they
nailed" (<g>H(/LWSAN</g>), thus clinching his view! Other
commentators accept most of the passage as Jewish. Billerbeck (to
Mt 1.1), for example, sees Joshua here designated as a future
Messiah, although he thinks the reference to the hands spread out
on the fruitful tree is a Christian addition. Volz, writing on
the Eschatology of Judaism in NT times (1934\2), tends to agree.
For convenience, here is a composite screenshot (omitting the page break) of the Greek (from the old edition by Charles Alexandre):

Image

The verb used for the sun standing still is the same as that used in Joshua 10.13. If there is any reference to the daytime darkness in the canonical crucifixion accounts, that reference must be oblique and allusive, whereas the connection to Joshua commanding the sun and moon is direct and verbal.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
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Giuseppe
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Giuseppe »

I find this:

http://www.luke2427.com/jesus-battle-ag ... evelation/
The dramatic narrative of Revelation is strikingly similar. The entire book appears to be driven by this most fundamental retelling of Joshua’s battle against Jericho. The extent of shared vocabulary and the overlap of unique and specific language between the Septuagint account of Jericho and Revelation are certainly far more compelling than interpretive models taken from the later prophets.

https://books.google.it/books?id=mZZLAw ... on&f=false

a true mistery: the Book of Revelation was written before or after the marcionite sect?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Secret Alias »

It is one of the items surveyed by Kraft in his (apparently controversial) essay.
I've been staying quiet but I have so say something. Do you understand the Jewish concept of 'names' and 'naming' as referenced quite accurately in Origen's Against Celsus?

There are people named 'Jesus.' Jesus isn't a holy name. Kraft assumes that Jesus of Nazareth was a man. So his idea is:

1. there really was this guy named Joshua
2. 'Joshua' is a type established by the figure of Joshua son of Nun.
3. Jesus of Nazareth was the 'fulfillment' in some sense of a pre-existent 'Jesus messiah' figure.

The problem is that this line of reasoning only shows up after the establishment of Christianity as a major religion. If you suppose that Jesus was a historical figure arguing for a 'Jesus messiah' figure isn't that big of a deal. You suppose that Jews were waiting for a messiah named Jesus even though there is no evidence for this IMO and in fact arguments to the contrary.

The comeback here might be - Jews really did believe this but when the man Jesus of Nazareth appeared they erased all their records. The problem with that theory is that in the gospel narrative the Jews presumably know that Jesus is so named (reading the nomen sacrum as a symbol of Jesus). If you think the gospel is a stupid story - a myth - then you can have characters saying anything even breaking out in song.

But we've already established that the 'Jesus messiah' thing presumes a history man named Jesus. I guess you could have a 'Jesus messiah' belief AND a supernatural Jesus figure in the gospel (i.e. that one has nothing to do with the other/being played off against one another). But this is a very complicated proposal. The failure of the Jews to recognize Jesus as the 'Jesus messiah' (or at least that he is claiming to be this person) when he is in fact named 'Jesus' is curious to say the least. Sort of like a Samaritan text describing the priesthood not seeing that a guy named 'Moses' might be the Ta'eb.

But as a mythicist your arguing in some way that the gospel was written about a god who came to earth named Jesus. This is definitely not what Kraft has in mind. So now there is an expectation for a 'messiah Jesus' and the appearance of a god or angel named 'Jesus.' That's two levels of queerness.

So on the one hand we have a messianic expectation that no one knows about before Christianity and a god named Jesus that no one knows about before Christianity playing off one another or cancelling one another out. Who knows. It's very weird.

I am suggesting that if the gospel was in any way about a 'messiah Jesus' then Jesus was likely a historical man named Jesus. Mythicism doesn't work (or at least is too complicated to take seriously).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Secret Alias »

And so that's why I like my idea that IC = Eesh a lot better. Eesh isn't a human name but theoretically at least (in that uniquely Jewish pseudo-Platonic interest in the supernatural powers of name) it is easier in my opinion to imagine that the existence of an angel named 'Man' could be the 'name about all names' because it ties into the pre-existent Jewish notion of man being named in the image and likeness of a divine being (i.e. in other words, the holy template of all human beings). A god named Jesus would only be the template of people named Joshua and would necessarily open the door for gods of every name in the world (the goddess Abigail, the god George, the god Gordon etc). I don't see how ancients wouldn't have been aware of all this.

Of course if you assume the gospel is just a 'stupid myth' then you have a counter argument but it seems to dangerously veer into mountainman-land.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Secret Alias »

And all the early heretics (especially the Valentinians) already showed an interest in a pre-existent god named Man (anthropos). The Jesus story just works if there was a human being named Joshua and there was this 'lost culture' of Judaism which was waiting for a second Joshua. With my theory there's no lost culture as all Jewish groups know the angel Eesh. You just have to account for white people being stupid and misinterpreting or being misled for how to interpret the nomen sacrum IC. Not a big hurdle especially when you factor in they were manipulating a religion which wasn't theirs to begin with ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote:I guess you could have a 'Jesus messiah' belief AND a supernatural Jesus figure in the gospel (i.e. that one has nothing to do with the other/being played off against one another). But this is a very complicated proposal.
Secret Alias wrote:But as a mythicist your arguing in some way that the gospel was written about a god who came to earth named Jesus. This is definitely not what Kraft has in mind. So now there is an expectation for a 'messiah Jesus' and the appearance of a god or angel named 'Jesus.' That's two levels of queerness.

So on the one hand we have a messianic expectation that no one knows about before Christianity and a god named Jesus that no one knows about before Christianity playing off one another or cancelling one another out. Who knows. It's very weird.

I am suggesting that if the gospel was in any way about a 'messiah Jesus' then Jesus was likely a historical man named Jesus. Mythicism doesn't work (or at least is too complicated to take seriously).
Can you do a better job of explaining what precisely about all this is supposed to be so "complicated"?
a 'Jesus messiah' belief AND a supernatural Jesus figure in the gospel (i.e. that one has nothing to do with the other
Why (the heck) would we assume that "one has nothing to do with the other"?
The problem with that theory is that in the gospel narrative the Jews presumably know that Jesus is so named (reading the nomen sacrum as a symbol of Jesus). If you think the gospel is a stupid story - a myth - then you can have characters saying anything even breaking out in song.
The failure of the Jews to recognize Jesus as the 'Jesus messiah' (or at least that he is claiming to be this person) when he is in fact named 'Jesus' is curious to say the least. Sort of like a Samaritan text describing the priesthood not seeing that a guy named 'Moses' might be the Ta'eb.
I take it that your point is that the canonical Gospels should have made a bigger deal about the name of "Jesus" as a demonstration that Jesus was special?
as a mythicist
Mythicism doesn't work
You do realize that there is more than one 'mythicism'? That the whole 'Joshua' business is not essential to it?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote:And all the early heretics (especially the Valentinians) already showed an interest in a pre-existent god named Man (anthropos).
Out of genuine curiosity, can you reference the Valentinian evidence for us?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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