About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. . .

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8624
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Peter Kirby »

Might as well stick this here -- (at least) as late as Origen, the magical/mystical importance of names was still held.

And Origen felt (at least) that the Gospels made it clear that Jesus was one such name of power.

"And a similar philosophy of names applies also to our Jesus, whose name has already been seen, in an unmistakeable manner, to have expelled myriads of evil spirits from the souls and bodies (of men), so great was the power which it exerted upon those from whom the spirits were driven out."

So maybe the Gospels don't actually provide a contra-indication to the idea that "Jesus" could have been a special name.....

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04161.htm
Chapter 24

After this he continues: These herdsmen and shepherds concluded that there was but one God, named either the Highest, or Adonai, or the Heavenly, or Sabaoth, or called by some other of those names which they delight to give this world; and they knew nothing beyond that. And in a subsequent part of his work he says, that It makes no difference whether the God who is over all things be called by the name of Zeus, which is current among the Greeks, or by that, e.g., which is in use among the Indians or Egyptians. Now, in answer to this, we have to remark that this involves a deep and mysterious subject— that, viz., respecting the nature of names: it being a question whether, as Aristotle thinks, names were bestowed by arrangement, or, as the Stoics hold, by nature; the first words being imitations of things, agreeably to which the names were formed, and in conformity with which they introduce certain principles of etymology; or whether, as Epicurus teaches (differing in this from the Stoics), names were given by nature,— the first men having uttered certain words varying with the circumstances in which they found themselves. If, then, we shall be able to establish, in reference to the preceding statement, the nature of powerful names, some of which are used by the learned among the Egyptians, or by the Magi among the Persians, and by the Indian philosophers called Brahmans, or by the Samanæans, and others in different countries; and shall be able to make out that the so-called magic is not, as the followers of Epicurus and Aristotle suppose, an altogether uncertain thing, but is, as those skilled in it prove, a consistent system, having words which are known to exceedingly few; then we say that the name Sabaoth, and Adonai, and the other names treated with so much reverence among the Hebrews, are not applicable to any ordinary created things, but belong to a secret theology which refers to the Framer of all things. These names, accordingly, when pronounced with that attendant train of circumstances which is appropriate to their nature, are possessed of great power; and other names, again, current in the Egyptian tongue, are efficacious against certain demons who can only do certain things; and other names in the Persian language have corresponding power over other spirits; and so on in every individual nation, for different purposes. And thus it will be found that, of the various demons upon the earth, to whom different localities have been assigned, each one bears a name appropriate to the several dialects of place and country. He, therefore, who has a nobler idea, however small, of these matters, will be careful not to apply differing names to different things; lest he should resemble those who mistakenly apply the name of God to lifeless matter, or who drag down the title of the Good from the First Cause, or from virtue and excellence, and apply it to blind Plutus, and to a healthy and well-proportioned mixture of flesh and blood and bones, or to what is considered to be noble birth.
Chapter 25

And perhaps there is a danger as great as that which degrades the name of God, or of the Good, to improper objects, in changing the name of God according to a secret system, and applying those which belong to inferior beings to greater, and vice versa. And I do not dwell on this, that when the name of Zeus is uttered, there is heard at the same time that of the son of Kronos and Rhea, and the husband of Hera, and brother of Poseidon, and father of Athene, and Artemis, who was guilty of incest with his own daughter Persephone; or that Apollo immediately suggests the son of Leto and Zeus, and the brother of Artemis, and half-brother of Hermes; and so with all the other names invented by these wise men of Celsus, who are the parents of these opinions, and the ancient theologians of the Greeks. For what are the grounds for deciding that he should on the one hand be properly called Zeus, and yet on the other should not have Kronos for his father and Rhea for his mother? And the same argument applies to all the others that are called gods. But this charge does not at all apply to those who, for some mysterious reason, refer the word Sabaoth, or Adonai, or any of the other names to the (true) God. And when one is able to philosophize about the mystery of names, he will find much to say respecting the titles of the angels of God, of whom one is called Michael, and another Gabriel, and another Raphael, appropriately to the duties which they discharge in the world, according to the will of the God of all things. And a similar philosophy of names applies also to our Jesus, whose name has already been seen, in an unmistakeable manner, to have expelled myriads of evil spirits from the souls and bodies (of men), so great was the power which it exerted upon those from whom the spirits were driven out. And while still upon the subject of names, we have to mention that those who are skilled in the use of incantations, relate that the utterance of the same incantation in its proper language can accomplish what the spell professes to do; but when translated into any other tongue, it is observed to become inefficacious and feeble. And thus it is not the things signified, but the qualities and peculiarities of words, which possess a certain power for this or that purpose. And so on such grounds as these we defend the conduct of the Christians, when they struggle even to death to avoid calling God by the name of Zeus, or to give Him a name from any other language. For they either use the common name— God— indefinitely, or with some such addition as that of the Maker of all things, the Creator of heaven and earth— He who sent down to the human race those good men, to whose names that of God being added, certain mighty works are wrought among men. And much more besides might be said on the subject of names, against those who think that we ought to be indifferent as to our use of them. And if the remark of Plato in the Philebus should surprise us, when he says, My fear, O Protagoras, about the names of the gods is no small one, seeing Philebus in his discussion with Socrates had called pleasure a god, how shall we not rather approve the piety of the Christians, who apply none of the names used in the mythologies to the Creator of the world? And now enough on this subject for the present.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Stephan Huller »

Come on, it's IC not Jesus. You're falling into sleepy time logic. The Origen manuscripts have a nomen sacrum not Jesus. All the Church Fathers too.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Stephan Huller »

And all the Fathers say Jesus was there with Abraham, wrestling with Jacob, in the fire with Moses. Why is there this retarded resistance to the idea that IC = Eesh. How do you think you'd pronounce the letters iota sigma?
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Stephan Huller »

It'd be obvious to Jews if (a) Jews read the Church Fathers and (b) they knew the manuscripts read IC not "Jesus"
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Stephan Huller »

I wish someone could demonstrate a parallel obtuse example of people writing a word on a page as a first letter last letter ALL THE FUCKING TIME.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Stephan Huller »

Christianity is Jewish, IC is Jewish
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8624
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Peter Kirby »

Stephan Huller wrote:Come on, it's IC not Jesus. You're falling into sleepy time logic. The Origen manuscripts have a nomen sacrum not Jesus. All the Church Fathers too.
So you think that Origen did not read the nomen sacrum iota-sigma (and its friends) as standing for the name 'IHSOUS'?

Why, exactly?

It's a hypothesis, at least, I'll give you that. But it's to be verified by a study of Origen, not your say-so.
The Origen manuscripts have a nomen sacrum not Jesus.
Unfortunately I am not 100% sure what the originals have. I'm not even 100% what all the copies have right now (not that they'd prove what the originals have). And I certainly know that the presence of the nomina sacra don't make your point, by themselves. Your fallacies have been discussed before.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8624
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Peter Kirby »

Stephan Huller wrote:And all the Fathers say Jesus was there with Abraham, wrestling with Jacob, in the fire with Moses. Why is there this retarded resistance to the idea that IC = Eesh. How do you think you'd pronounce the letters iota sigma?
Not a sound argument demonstrating the interpretation of Origen.
It'd be obvious to Jews if (a) Jews read the Church Fathers and (b) they knew the manuscripts read IC not "Jesus"
Not a sound argument demonstrating the interpretation of Origen.
I wish someone could demonstrate a parallel obtuse example of people writing a word on a page as a first letter last letter ALL THE FUCKING TIME.
Not a sound argument demonstrating the interpretation of Origen.
Christianity is Jewish, IC is Jewish
Not a sound argument demonstrating the interpretation of Origen.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Secret Alias »

I had an experience today. I have been researching a document which was lost at a monastery somewhere a long time ago. It's been the quest of my life time. I get a hold of someone who has the key to everything. The priest said 'oh I was there when that happened, oh by the way before I continue, are you a Christian?' What kind of a principled dickhead would stop at that moment and say, 'nah I think you are all a bunch of wankers.' This is life and life is always the same.

It's always been the same. All traditions become crypto-traditions. Origen certainly knew the position of orthodoxy. But his teacher was Clement and Clement knew that IC wrestled with Jacob.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: About a messianic prophecy from the Sibylline Oracles. .

Post by Secret Alias »

I am right about Justin. I am right about Clement. It's there in their writings. What more do I have to do? How did Eesh = IC get in the manuscripts of the 'Jesus' tradition? And why isn't it called Jesus-anity? Epiphanius says he saw Hebrew texts of Acts in which Christians were called 'Eeshim.' Why do we call them according to a title that has nothing to do with the man Jesus? Because people in the second century knew the tradition was called Eeshim and there was no way of getting Jesus from Eeshim in Hebrew or Aramaic. Eeshim was inexplicable from the 'Jesus' paradigm. So the name was abandoned.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Post Reply