Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Secret Alias »

Of course he does. This is the problem. We are in a sacred garden here when talking about what happened before creation. For this is the whole idea. Man = fire and fire was created before the first day. Again from Genesis Rabbah:
for Samuel said : Why do we recite a blessing over a fire at the termination of the Sabbath ? Because it [fire] was then created for the first time. R. Huna in Rab's name, and R. Abbahu in R. Johanan's name said: At the termination of the Day of Atonement, too, we recite a blessing over it, because the fire rested the whole day.
If Genesis already has water as created before the first day and now fire too this other statement from Genesis Rabbah also makes sense:
And God called the firmament heaven — shamayim Rab said: [Shamayim is a compound of] esh (fire) and mayim (water). R. Abba b. Kahana said in Rab's name: The Holy One, blessed be He, took fire and water and beat them up together, and from them the heaven was made.
So the great secret of the Bible is that a proto-man - Ish, a spiritual being (= name above all names) - was created before the first day along with everything else of the spiritual realm. Genesis only describes what happened in the ghetto (= here in the material realm).

And once you understand that then you understand why Ish was chosen as the example here. Because Ish and Torah come from fire. In the former case it is obvious because Ish was originally spelled aleph shin (see the Book of Ezekiel) and in the latter case eshdat lamo - http://jbq.jewishbible.org/assets/Uploa ... 2_fire.pdf

Fire is spirit in Hebrew. That is why the angels are called seraphim. The heavenly man is a fire man = Ish. How can you want to eat in a Chinese restaurant and not use chopsticks. You can't read the Pentateuch in a white manner. It is never just about the text on the page. There was from the beginning an accompanying oral tradition because the Jews didn't trust their overlords to reveal everything on the written page. There is always a 'subtext.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Secret Alias »

FWIW Eusebius's connection between 'Enosh' and forgetfulness is derived from Hebrew. Nasa (נָשָׂא) = take away. Nasha (נָשָׁה) = forget. The etymology is actually connected with Manasseh in Gen 41:51.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Secret Alias »

Remember what we are suggesting is that a man (eesh) who is fire (eesh) and comes from heaven which made entirely of that special fire is the name above all things which served as the template both of the universe (macrocosm) and humanity (microcosm). Let's see what evidence we can discern from Philo with regards to his interest in divine fire. That heaven is made of fire in the original Jewish cosmogeny:
On this account also, Moses speaks of them as having finished the tower, though in fact they had not yet completed it, where he says, "The Lord went down to see the city and the tower," not which the sons of men were going to build, but which they had built. What, then, is the proof that they had not entirely completed this building? First of all, the manifest notoriety of the fact. For it is impossible for even so slight a portion of the earth to touch the heaven, by reason of the cause before mentioned, that no centre can ever touch the circumference; in the second place, because the aether aitheµr is sacred fire and an unquenchable flame, as its very name shows, being derived from aithoµ, to burn, which is a synonymous word with kaioµ. And we have a witness in our favour in one portion of the heavenly system of fire, that is in the sun, who, though he is at such a distance from the earth, sends his beams down into his inmost recesses, and sometimes warms and at times even scorches the earth itself, and the air which reaches from earth up to the heavenly sphere, though it is by nature cold; for, all those things which are removed to a distance from his rapid course, or which are in an oblique direction, one side of it only warms; but those which are near to him, or in a direct line from him, is violently burnt up. [On the Confusion of Tongues 156 - 157]
This idea is clarified in A Treatise Concerning the World with a Valentinian understanding of fire as 'horos' (I don't think this has been noted before):
Since the Creator of the world bringing an essence previously without any order and in complete confusion, into distinct order and regularity, began to arrange and adorn the earth and the water, and established them in the middle of the world, and the trees, and air, and fire he drew up from the middle to the higher regions, and he fixed the regions of the aether all around, placing it as a boundary (= horos) to and a preserver of the things which were inside, from which also it derived its name of Heaven.[horos is the Greek word for boundary, from which Philo thinks that ouranos, "heaven," is derived.] And these things, then, were the perfect seeds of the whole universe, but the great and all productive tree raised from this seed is this world, of which the aforesaid branches are the offshoots. [Treatise I]
Interestingly 'horos' is associated with divine Law (cf. Eshdad Lamo):
Therefore we are naturally led to conclude that the whole earth will not be dissolved by water, which its bosoms contain; nor again will fire be extinguished by the air, nor again will the air be burnt up and consumed by fire, since the divine law has placed itself as a boundary (horos) to keep all these elements distinct from one another.
Is the power 'horos' understood to be the Lawgiver? It is an interesting question, but one wonders if Philo is telling the truth when he says that the Jews don't believe in a final conflagration by heavenly fire given that (a) he clearly distinguishes between 'earthly fire' which is part of the four lower elements and 'heavenly fire' which serves as a boundary and unifying force in the universe.

Just like Heaven, God is made of fire:
And, again, in Exodus, in the assembly of the people, we read: "For the whole of the mountain of Sinai was enveloped in smoke, because God descended upon it in fire. And the smoke went up as the vapour of a furnace, and the whole people was greatly Astonished." [Ex 19:18] Also, in Leviticus, when speaking of the consecration of the priests on the eighth day, when fire came out from heaven and licked up what was on the altar, and the burnt offerings and the fat, the historian proceeds immediately to tell us, "And the whole people saw it and were astonished, and fell upon their Faces;" [Lev 9:24] for such astonishment as this causes alarm and consternation. [Who is the Heir of Divine Things 251]
He references the fire in Exodus 12:11 (used during Passover) as 'the king':

Wherefore, taking care that they should not be defiled in any way. He handed them over to an undefiled king, the fire. [Questions and Answers in Exodus 18]
(Ex. xxiv. 17) What is the meaning of the words, " The form of the glory of the Lord (was) like a fire burning before the sons of the seeing one [i.e. Israel = a man (ish) seing God] " (This is said) because, as has been said before," the glory of God is the power" through which He now appears ; the form of this power is like a flame or rather, it is not but appears (to be so) to the spectators, for God showed not that which pertained to His essence but what He wished to seem to be to the amazement of the spectators." And so, (Scripture) adds, " before the sons of the seeing one," indicating most clearly that there was an appearance of flame, not a veritable flame/ In the second place," because He showed ''the mountain (to be) inaccessible and unapproachable * to the people, He extended the appearance of a flame-like fire around it in order that no one, even if he wished, might be able to come near in disregard of his own safety. For they are silly and at the same time frivolous in belief who believe that the fire is the essence of God when (Scripture) clearly proclaims that it is the form of the glory and power of God which appears but not the truly existing One, and that the fire is not His power but only His glory and that in the opinion of the spectators it appeared to their eyes not to be what it was," because of the reasons mentioned. That is the literal meaning, But as for the deeper meaning, just as the flame consumes all the material that comes its way, so, too, when the thought of God clearly reaches the soul, it destroys all the heterodox thoughts of piety, bringing the whole mind into (a state of) holiness.'' [Questions and Answers in Exodus 47]
Clearly Philo is distinguishing between the Almighty God and his lieutenant in a typical and extremely evasive manner. God is made of fire and the experience of seeing him is like standing near divine flames:

(Ex. xxiv. lb) Why does He say, " they shall worship the Lord from afar"? Just as those who are near a fire are burned, while those who stand apart at a distance measured by a long interval attain to security, so it is with the soul ; whatever soul comes too near m desiring the vision of God, does not perceive when it is being consumed.'* But as for that (soul) which stands far off at a distance, no longer do the tongues of flame burn it but warming it moderately, they kindle it with vitality. This [i.e. the statement about souls that draw near to the fire] is said in reference to the dissolution and rapture of the most perfect and prophetic mind, for which it is fitting and lawful to enter the dark cloud and to dwell in the forecourt of the palace of the Father. Wherefore also there are some animals which move and dwell in fire, by which others are destroyed, and they are called " fire-born." [Questions and Answers in Exodus 28 ibid 28]


Philo continually references the existence of presumably salamanders as such creatures. He thinks they still live in Macedonia. Also the 'divine bodies' as made of fire:
And the burning torches of fire which are lighted up are the judgments of God who bears the torch, being bright and radiant, which are accustomed to be always placed in the middle between the divided portions; I mean by this the portions set in opposition to one another, of which the whole world is composed. For we read in the scripture, "The lamps of fire which were in the midst between the divided Portions," [Gen 15:17] that you may know that the divine powers which go through the middle of both bodies and things, destroy none of them; for both the divisions remain unhurt, but only divide and discriminate in a most excellent manner between the natures of each. [ibid 311 - 312]
This idea is further illuminated in Questions and Answers in Genesis 15:
What is the meaning of the expression, "Behold there was a smoking furnace and torches of fires, which passed through the middle of those divisions?" [Ge 15:18]. The literal meaning of the statement is plain, for the fountain or root of the divine word will have the victims consumed, not by that fire which is given for our use, but by that which descends from above, out of heaven, in order that the purity of the essence of heaven may bear witness to the sanctity of the victims. But if we regard the inward meaning of the words, all things which are done beneath the moon are here compared to a smoking furnace, on account of the vapour which rises up out of the earth and water. As also the divisions of nature are, as has been already shown, every portion of the world being divided into two parts; and by these there are kindled, as it were, torches of fire, being powers which are more rapid in motion and more efficacious, being burning, in truth, like divine fiery discourses, at one time keeping the whole universe in a state of integrity reciprocally with themselves, and at another cleansing away the superfluous darkness. But the following interpretation may also be given with propriety in a more familiar manner. Human life is like unto a smoking furnace, because it has not a pure fire and an unalloyed brilliancy, but a great deal of smoke, smoking darkly through the flame, which causes mist and darkness, and an obscuration, not of the body but of the soul, so that this last cannot discern things clearly, until God the redeemer commands the heavenly lamps to arise, I mean those more pure and more holy radiations which unite those parts previously divided in two, on the right hand and on the left, and, at the same time, illuminate them, being the causes of harmony and of lucid clearness.
That the Logos is the Sun a body made of fire who's very words are fire:
But according to the third signification, when he speaks of the sun, he means the divine word, the model of that sun which moves about through the heaven, as has been said before, and with respect to which it is said, "The sun went forth upon the earth, and Lot entered into Segor, and the Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire." For the word of God, when it reaches to our earthly constitution, assists and protects those who are akin to virtue, or whose inclinations lead them to virtue; so that it provides them with a complete refuge and salvation, but upon their enemies it sends irremediable overthrow and destruction. And in the fourth signification, what is meant by the sun is the God and ruler of the universe himself, as I have said already, by means of whom such offences as are irremediable, and which appear to be overshadowed and concealed, are revealed; for as all things are possible, so, likewise, all things are known to God. [On Dreams 1.85 - 87]
God as fire:
And when Moses was leading his flock into a situation full of good water and good grass, where there was also a great deal of herbage especially suitable for sheep, he came upon a certain grove in a valley, where he saw a most marvellous sight. There was a bush or briar, a very thorny plant, and very weak and supple. This bush was on a sudden set in a blaze without any one applying any fire to it, and being entirely enveloped from the root to the topmost branch by the abundant flame, as though it had proceeded from some fountain showering fire over it, it nevertheless remained whole without being consumed, like some impassible essence, and not as if it were itself the natural fuel for fire, but rather as if it were taking the fire for its own fuel. And in the middle of the flame there was seen a certain very beautiful form, not resembling any visible thing, a most Godlike image, emitting a light more brilliant than fire, which any one might have imagined to be the image of the living God. But let it be called an angel, because it merely related (dieµngelleto) the events which were about to happen in a silence more distinct than any voice by reason of the marvellous sight which was thus exhibited. For the burning bush was a symbol of the oppressed people, and the burning fire was a symbol of the oppressors; and the circumstance of the burning bush not being consumed was an emblem of the fact that the people thus oppressed would not be destroyed by those who were attacking them, but that their hostility would be unsuccessful and fruitless to the one party, and the fact of their being plotted against would fail to be injurious to the others. The angel, again, was the emblem of the providence of God, who mitigates circumstances which appear very formidable, so as to produce from them great tranquillity beyond the hopes or expectation of any one.

But we must now accurately investigate the comparison here made. The briar, as has been already said, is a most weak and supple plant, yet it is not without thorns, so that it wounds one if one only touches it. Nor was it consumed by fire, which is naturally destructive, but on the contrary it was preserved by it, and in addition to not being consumed, it continued just as it was before, and without undergoing any change whatever itself, acquired additional brilliancy. (69) All these circumstances are an allegory to intimate the suggestions given by the other notions which at that time prevailed, almost crying out in plain words to persons in affliction, "Do not faint; your weakness if your strength, which shall pierce and wound innumerable hosts. You shall be saved rather than destroyed, by those who are desirous to destroy your whole race against their will, so that you shall not be overwhelmed by the evils with which they will afflict you, but when your enemies think most surely that they are destroying you, then you shall most brilliantly shine out in glory." Again, the fire, which is a destructive essence, convicting the men of cruel dispositions, says, Be not elated so as to rely on your own strength; be admonished rather when you see irresistible powers destroyed. The consuming power of flame is itself consumed like firewood, and the wood, which is by its intrinsic nature capable of being burnt, burns other things visibly like fire. [Life of Moses 1:65 - 70]
Fire from heaven:
Therefore on this occasion, as the holy scriptures tell us, thunderbolts fell from heaven, and burnt up those wicked men and their cities; and even to this day there are seen in Syria monuments of the unprecedented destruction that fell upon them, in the ruins, and ashes, and sulphur, and smoke, and dusky flame which still is sent up from the ground as of a fire smouldering beneath; and in this way it came to pass that those wicked men were punished with the aforesaid chastisements, while those who were eminent for virtue and piety were well off, receiving rewards worthy of their virtue. (58) But when the whole of that district was thus burnt, inhabitants and all, by the impetuous rush of the heavenly fire, one single man in the country, a sojourner, was preserved by the providence of God because he had never shared in the transgressions of the natives, though sojourners in general were in the habit of adopting the customs of the foreign nations, among which they might be settled, for the sake of their own safety, since, if they despised them, they might be in danger from the inhabitants of the land. And yet this man had not attained to any perfection of wisdom, so as to be thought worthy of such an honour by reason of the perfect excellence of his nature; but he was spared only because he did not join the multitude who were inclined to luxury and effeminacy, and who pursued every kind of pleasure and indulged every kind of appetite, gratifying them abundantly, and inflaming them as one might inflame fire by heaping upon it plenty of rough fuel. [Life of Moses 2.56 - 58]
Fire from heaven:
And while they were still praying a most marvellous prodigy happened; for from out of the inmost shrine, whether it was a portion of the purest possible aether, or whether the air, according to some natural change of the elements, had become dissolved with fire, on a sudden a body of flame shone forth, and with impetuous violence descended on the altar and consumed all that was thereon, with the view, as I imagine, of showing in the clearest manner that none of the things which had been done had been done without the especial providence of God. For it was natural that an especial honour should be assigned to the holy place, not only by means of those things in which men are the workmen employed, but also by that purest of all essences, fire, in order that the ordinary fire which is used by men might not touch the altar; perhaps by reason of its being defiled by ten thousand impurities. For it is concerned not only with irrational animals when they are roasted or boiled for the unjust appeasing of our miserable bellies, but also in the case of men who are slain by hostile attack, not merely in a small body of three or four, but in numerous hosts. At all events, before now, arrows charged with fire have been aimed at vast naval fleets and have burnt them; and fire has destroyed whole cities, which have blazed away till they have been consumed down to their very foundations and reduced to ashes, so that no trace whatever has remained of their former situation. It appears to me that this was the reason for which God rejected from his sacred altar the fire which is applied to common uses, as being defiled; and that, instead of it, he rained down celestial flame from heaven, in order to make a distinction between holy and profane things, and to separate the things belonging to man from the things belonging to God; for it was fitting that a more incorruptible essence of fire than that which served the common purposes of life should be set apart for sacrifices. [ibid 154 - 158]
The Man of War came from heaven with fire to divide the sea:
Then, also, there was a rush onwards of their enemies pursuing them, without stopped to take breath, hastening to their own destruction, and a driving forward of the cloud that guarded the rear of the Hebrews, on which there was a certain divine appearance of fire emitting a brilliant blaze, and a reflux of the sea, which up to that moment had been cut in two parts and stood asunder, and a sudden returning of the part which had been cut off and dried up into its original channel, and an utter destruction of the enemy, whom the walls the sea, which had been congealed and which now turned back again, overwhelmed, and the sea pouring down and hurrying into what had just been a road, as if into some deep ravine, washed away every thing, and there was evidence of the completeness of the destruction in the bodies which floated on the waters, and which strewed the surface of the sea; and a great agitation of the waves, by which all the dead were cast up into a heap on the opposite shore, becoming a necessary spectacle to those who had been delivered, and to whom it had been granted not merely to escape from their dangers, but also to behold their enemies punished, in a manner too marvellous for description, by no human but by a divine power. [ibid 254 - 256]
Lightning = heavenly fire:
We must also not overlook this circumstance, that both earth and heaven, which are the first principles of the universe, bore their share in the punishment of these wicked men, for they had rooted their wickedness in the earth, and extended it up to the sky, raising it to that vast height, on which account each of the elements contributed its part to their chastisement, the earth, so as to drag down and swallow up those who were at that time weighing it down, bursting asunder and dividing; and the heaven, by tearing up and destroying them, raining down a mighty storm of much fire, a most novel kind of rain, and the end was the same, both to those who were swallowed up by the earth and to those who were destroyed by the thunderbolts, for neither of them were seen any more; the one body being concealed by the earth, the chasm being united again and meeting as before, so as to make solid ground; and the other people being consumed entirely by the fire of the thunderbolts. [ibid 285 - 287]
God's words were made of fire and which penetrated the tablets to write the 10 commandments:
This, then, may be enough to say on these subjects; but it is necessary now to connect with these things what I am about to say, namely, that it was the Father of the universe who delivered these ten maxims, or oracles, or laws and enactments, as they truly are, to the whole assembled nation of men and women altogether. Did he then do so, uttering himself some kind of voice? Away! let not such an idea ever enter your mind; for God is not like a man, in need of a mouth, and of a tongue, and of a windpipe, but as it seems to me, he at that time wrought a most conspicuous and evidently holy miracle, commanding an invisible sound to be created in the air, more marvellous than all the instruments that ever existed, attuned to perfect harmonies; and that not an inanimate one, nor yet, on the other hand, one that at all resembled any nature composed of soul and body; but rather it was a rational soul filled with clearness and distinctness, which fashioned the air and stretched it out and changed it into a kind of flaming fire, and so sounded forth so loud and articulate a voice like a breath passing through a trumpet, so that those who were at a great distance appeared to hear equally with those who were nearest to it. For the voices of men, when they are spread over a very long distance, do naturally become weaker and weaker, so that those who are at a distance from them cannot arrive at a clear comprehension of them, but their understanding is gradually dimmed by the extension of the sound over a larger space, since the organs also by which it is extended are perishable. But the power of God, breathing forth vigorously, aroused and excited a new kind of miraculous voice, and diffusing its sound in every direction, made the end more conspicuous at a distance than the beginning, implanting in the soul of each individual another hearing much superior to that which exists through the medium of the ears. For the one, being in some degree a slower kind of external sense, remains in a state of inactivity until it is struck by the air, and so put in motion. But the sense of the inspired mind outstrips that, going forth with the most rapid motion to meet what is said. [Decalogue 32- 36] The Samaritans develop a very similar idea.
And again:
And, moreover, as was natural, he filled the whole place with miraculous signs and works, with noises of thunder too great for the hearing to support, and with the most radiant brilliancy of flashes of lightning, and with the sound of an invisible trumpet extending to a great distance, and with the march of a cloud, which, like a pillar, had its foundation fixed firmly on the earth, but raised the rest of its body even to the height of heaven; and, last of all, by the impetuosity of a heavenly fire, which overshadowed everything around with a dense smoke. For it was fitting that, when the power of God came among them, none of the parts of the world should be quiet, but that everything should be put in motion to minister to his service. And the people stood by, having kept themselves clean from all connection with women, and having abstained from all pleasures, except those which arise from a participation in necessary food, having been purifying themselves with baths and ablutions for three days, and having washed their garments and being all clothed in the purest white robes, and standing on tiptoe and pricking up their ears, in compliance with the exhortations of Moses, who had forewarned them to prepare for the solemn assembly; for he knew that such would take place, when he, having been summoned up alone, gave forth the prophetic commands of God. And a voice sounded forth from out of the midst of the fire which had flowed from heaven, a most marvellous and awful voice, the flame being endowed with articulate speech in a language familiar to the hearers, which expressed its words with such clearness and distinctness that the people seemed rather to be seeing than hearing it. And the law testifies to the accuracy of my statement, where it is written, "And all the people beheld the voice most evidently." For the truth is that the voice of men is calculated to be heard; but that of God to be really and truly seen. Why is this? Because all that God says are not words, but actions which the eyes determine on before the ears. It is, therefore, with great beauty, and also with a proper sense of what is consistent with the dignity of God, that the voice is said to have come forth out of the fire; for the oracles of God are accurately understood and tested like gold by the fire. And God also intimates to us something of this kind by a figure. Since the property of fire is partly to give light, and partly to burn, those who think fit to show themselves obedient to the sacred commands shall live for ever and ever as in a light which is never darkened, having his laws themselves as stars giving light in their soul. But all those who are stubborn and disobedient are for ever inflamed, and burnt, and consumed by their internal appetites, which, like flame, will destroy all the life of those who possess them. [ibid 44 - 49]
Heaven is fire:
On this account it is that the most central position of all has been assigned to the earth, to which all things belonging to it adhere, and to which they descend again even if you throw them into the air: and this is a proof that their place is in accordance with nature; for wherever anything is borne without any violence, and where it then remains firm and stationary, that is clearly its natural place. And then, in the second place, water was poured over the earth, and air and fire have gone from the central to the upper part, air having received for its portion the region which is on the borders between air and fire, and fire having received the highest place of all: on which account, if you light a torch and press it down towards the ground, nevertheless the flame will still turn in a contrary direction, and lightening itself in accordance with the natural motion of fire, will rise upwards [On the Eternity of the World 33]
The material goes on to reference Stoic sounding ideas of a conflagration by fire:
There are three species in fire; the coal, and the flame, and the light. Now coal is the fire in its earthy substance, which, like a sort of spiritual habit, couches and lies hid in a sort of cavern, pervading it all to its very extremities. And the flame is that part which, being raised on high, is lifted up from its fuel. And the light is that which is emitted from the flame, so as to co-operate with the eyes, in order to enable them to comprehend what is seen. And the flame occupies the middle position between the coal and the light; for when it is extinguished it ends in coal, and when it is kindled it excites the light, which, being deprived of its burning power, blazes. (87) If therefore, we affirm that the world is dissolved by conflagration, it would not be coal, because, in that case there will be a great deal of the earthy substance left behind, in which also fire must necessarily be contained. But we must agree, that none of the other bodies subsist any longer, but that earth, and water, and air, are all dissolved into unmixed fire. (88) Nor, again, would it become flame; for that can only exist in connexion with nourishment; and, if nothing is left behind, being deprived of all nourishment it will immediately be extinguished. It follows from all this, that it cannot become light either; for light by itself has no substance at all, but flows from the things before mentioned, coal and flame, not in a great degree from the coal, but very much from the flame; for it is diffused over a very great space indeed. But if, as has been already proved, those things had no existence from the conflagration of all things, then there could not be any light either. For the abundant, and vast, and extensive brilliancy of mid-day, when the sun proceeds under the earth, is at once caused to disappear by night, especially if it be a moonless night. Therefore the world is not destroyed by fire, but is indestructible. And if it should be destroyed by fire, there could not be another created. [ibid 86 - 88]
Some (Christians?) say that all the elements dissolve into fire (i.e. the heavenly stuff) at the end of times:
But a person may very likely wonder at those who talk about conflagrations and regenerations, not only on account of the arguments which I have just been adducing, by which they are convicted of maintaining erroneous opinions, but also above all other reasons for this one; for since there are four elements of which the world consists, namely, earth, water, air, and fire, why is it that they are to separate fire from all the others, and to affirm that all the others are dissolved into that one? For some one may say, if it is necessary that they should all be resolved into one, why should they not be resolved into air, or water, or earth? For these elements also contain powers of great magnitude; but yet no one has ever said that the world was to pass away into air, or into water, or into earth; so that it would be equally natural to deny that it is resolved into fire [ibid 107]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stephan Huller
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Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Stephan Huller »

The original spelling of Eesh was "Fire" (the heavenly stuff)

http://jamestabor.com/2015/06/06/biblic ... the-bible/

The name above all names. If only people knew a little Hebrew ...
Stephan Huller
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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Stephan Huller »

And this in turn explains why Simon and Marcus were identified as "Magi"
Secret Alias
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Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Secret Alias »

We're getting very close now. So Paul mentions 'the name above all names.' There is some debate as to whether this is Jesus or Yahweh. Let's see what the Jews say or at least what Elke Morlok has figured out in my favorite Kabbalist Rabbi Joseph Gikatilla (= Rabbi Joseph Gikatilla's Hermeneutics). He notes:
In Ginnat 'Egoz the method is applied as follows (p. 292):
(22) Following this know that the entire world operates according to the principle of calculation, (gematria) and the calculation is dependent on His blessed Name. And know that the fire of Adonay ('Esh Adonay = 366) results from the truth of calculation (Heshbon = 366), whose secret is the Name YHWH (shem YHWH = 366). Understand this method like this: that within the palace of His blessed concealment the fire is found since it was the first desire, and as we have already explained, this fire is not a substance nor is it subtle, rather it is the fire of the intellect. It serves as the foundation of all light from whose true essence all others derive. Now understand that the palace of YHWH (Hekhal YHWH) is the fire of the Name ('Esh Shem) [by rearranging these word-pairs their numerical values also equal 366: Hekhal (65) + 'Esh (301) = 366; Shem (340) + YHWH (26) = 366)]. I27
In this passage Gikatilla explains the cosmic organization by numerology, depending on the divine names. With the help of the "fire of the intellect", the cosmos was created and with the knowledge of its inner secrets - its numerology - the mystic may penetrate into those secrets. This is a purely intellectual procedure, and not an astrological undertaking. However, this process of intellectualizing is not static but a highly dynamic activity.

127 I may suggest that it would be more logic to read: "Hekhal 'Esh (palace of fire = 366) equals Shem YHWH (the name YHWH = 366).
Come on this is pretty close, right?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Secret Alias »

A wicked person is called a rasha in Hebrew, which has a numerical value of 570 (rasha is spelled reish, shin, ayin; reish = 200, shin = 300, ayin = 70, totaling 570). That the Lord's man or 'name of Yahweh' (= 366) had a practical effect on humanity in Judaism is demonstrated by the oft repeated significance of the number 366. The word for a pure, righteous person is tzaddik, which equals 204 (tzaddik is spelled tzaddik, daled, yud, kuf; tzaddik = 90, daled = 4, yud = 10, kuf = 100, totaling 204). The difference between them is 366. Beneath every rasha is a hidden tzaddik. We just need to remove the layers of evil and we will find his goodness.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Secret Alias »

Curious argument in the gemara which I think can tie everything together to the satisfaction of the PEOPLE TOO LAZY TO LEARN ABOUT JUDAISM AND PRETEND THAT CHRISTIANITY MIGHT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED FROM PAGAN MYTHS EVEN THOUGH JEWISH SCRIPTURE IS CITED ON ALMOST EVERY PAGE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT OR ALLUDED TO IN SOME WAY AND JEWISH CULTURE AS SUCH SET ITSELF APART FROM PAGAN CULTURE. In a discussion of how embryos are made male and female in the womb we read in Nidah 30b we hear it explained what happens when the soul dies:
As soon as it (the soul) sees the light an angel approaches, slaps it on its mouth and causes it to forget all the Torah completely as it is said, Sin coucheth at the door. (Psalm 4:4) It does not emerge from there before it is made to take an oath as it is said, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear; (Isaiah 45:23) 'That unto Me every knee shall bow' refers to the day of dying of which it is said All they that go down to the dust shall kneel before Him; (Psalm 22:30) 'Every tongue shall swear' refers to the day of birth of which it is said, He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart, who hath not taken His name [strangely the text has 'His name' but it is read 'my Name'] in vain, and hath not sworn deceitfully. (Psalm 24:4) What is the nature of the oath that it is made to take? Be righteous, and be never wicked; and even if all the world tells you, You are righteous (zaddik = 204), consider yourself wicked (rasha = 570). Always be knowing that the Holy One, blessed be He, is pure, that his ministers are pure and that the soul which He gave you is pure; if you preserve it in purity, well and good, but if not, I will take it away from you. The school of R. Ishmael taught: This may be compared to the case of a priest who handled over some terumah to an 'am ha-arez and told him, 'If you preserve it under conditions of cleanness, well and good, but if not, I will burn it in your presence'. R. Eleazar observed: What is the Scriptural proof (that an oath is taken on the day of one's birth)? From my mother's womb Thou art gozi (= 26). What is the proof that 'gozi' implies 'swearing'? — Because it is written, Swear [gozi] concerning thy naziriteship and cast away.
Let's break down the points. First point. The Psalm from which Philippians 2:6-11 derives - Isaiah 45:23 - is what 'happens' on the day the soul is born and subsequently dies. This is particularly interestingly given that in Paul baptism is often understood to be connected with both (i.e. death and rebirth). The second point is that the soul in introduced to the name of God in both instances and then subsequently 'forgets' it.

This in my mind bears striking similarities to what happens in the temple (of Alexandria?) in the Toledoth Yeshu:
In the Temple was to be found the Foundation Stone on which were engraved the letters of God's Ineffable Name. Whoever learned the secret of the Name and its use would be able to do whatever he wished. Therefore, the Sages took measures so that no one should gain this knowledge. Lions of brass were bound to two iron pillars at the gate of the place of burnt offerings. Should anyone enter and learn the Name, when he left the lions would roar at him and immediately the valuable secret would be forgotten.

Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name; he wrote them upon the parchment which he placed in an open cut on his thigh and then drew the flesh over the parchment. As he left, the lions roared and he forgot the secret. But when he came to his house he reopened the cut in his flesh with a knife an lifted out the writing. Then he remembered and obtained the use of the letters.

He gathered about himself three hundred and ten young men of Israel and accused those who spoke ill of his birth of being people who desired greatness and power for themselves. Yeshu proclaimed, "I am the Messiah; and concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, 'Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.'" He quoted other messianic texts, insisting, "David my ancestor prophesied concerning me: 'The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.'"

The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give them a convincing sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man, who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name, and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son of the Highest.
In what on the surface seems to be yet another stupid story from the Jewish oral tradition bears striking witness to Philo of Alexandria's description of the manner in which proselytes are brought into the Jewish religion.

Yet let's look at the elements in Nidah 30b. There is a clear allusion to gilgul (reincarnation). The soul is brought into acquaintance with is either 'YHWH' (= 26) or 'the name of Yahweh.' The introduction of the 'name of God' (= 366) makes a bad soul good. The context clearly demands one of two possibilities - either the name introduced to the 'soul' (ritually in these ceremonies) is YHWH which happens to be coded in the discussion in the gemara is גוֹזִ֑י (gozi).

In other words, just as in the story in the Toledoth Yeshu the soul is introduced to the 'name of YHWH' and swears not to remember (or reveal?) the name. But clearly as we noted the thing being introduced could either be YHWH = 26 or 366 (i.e. 'the name of YHWH' or the Lord's man). I think the Christians didn't believe it was YHWH but that they were physically introduced to the person (or man) of the Lord.

Again the PEOPLE TOO LAZY TO LEARN ABOUT JUDAISM AND PRETEND THAT CHRISTIANITY MIGHT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED FROM PAGAN MYTHS EVEN THOUGH JEWISH SCRIPTURE IS CITED ON ALMOST EVERY PAGE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT OR ALLUDED TO IN SOME WAY AND JEWISH CULTURE AS SUCH SET ITSELF APART FROM PAGAN CULTURE will have to admit that we're getting close. At least we're starting to reveal some sort of ritual context for the ideas in Philippians. I hope these are appreciated. This is a lot of work.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Secret Alias »

forget it. No point
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

Post by Secret Alias »

It is amazing to see how the Kabbalistic interest in 366 resembles the silly story of Jesus in the Jewish temple learning the divine name. There is this concept of 'the name YHWH' or 'man of (the) Lord' which has a value of 366 which gives great power to those who know it (i.e. because it is the name above all names) or as Gikatilla writes:
The magical use of Gematria as the newly created narrative is represented in this process as replacing the historical narrative, where this power was exercised by God. Now, the "real" Anshei Middot (people of measures), those people who know how to use numerical magic correctly, conquer the city of the enemy and "replace" the divine power (on basis of the Gematria:
(52) Know [my brother] that for this reason the city of the Amorites ['Emori, lit. those who articulate] was called Heshbon (lit. calculation) as they were people of great might {'Anshei Hayyil), heroes who equaled in their number ('Anashim Gibborim 'Olim baMispar) [to the Great Name] [numerically Heshbon = Shem YHWH = 366]. As Scripture says, "All the people that we saw in it are men of great stature" (Num. 13: 32) ('Anshei Middot, lit. "men of (great) measurements [Middot]", i.e. men who possess righteous attributes; Middot is used to describe the divine attributes). Therefore, you will find written about them, "Yet we have cast them down utterly, Heshbon (lit. calculation) along with Dibon" (Num. 21 : 30), because by the power of the Name YHWH (Shem YHWH = 366) we have defeated the people of Heshbon (= 366), who are the Amorites ('Emori). Subsequently, it is written, "So Israel occupied the land of the Amorites ('Emori)" (Num. 21 : 31) for by the power of calculation they defeated the people of the city of Heshbon which was the first city to be captured and settled by the Israelites ... and since Heshbon was the first of the [Canaanite] cities to be captured and settled by Israel, know that the city of Heshbon stood as an obstacle to the occupation of the land and could have prevented the occupation of the entire country, since it possessed a supernal influx (Hamshakhah 'Elyonah). However, when the [secret] principle (Yesod) of Heshbon was applied with force upon the city it was immediately captured, for even though I say Heshbon (= 366) I refer to its [secret] principle which is Shem YHWH (= 366). In any event, the great Name reigns in Heshbon and therefore the city was captured by [applying] the power of Shem YHWH (= 366) for this is the [secret] principle [underlying the name of the city] Heshbon (= 366).
However, the divine name remains the highest instance of control for such exegesis. The name itself becomes available for the mystic only with the help of linguistic techniques, but the interdependence between the divine name and its numerical values is not reversible and the hierarchy remains stable. In the continuation of the passage mentioned above, Gikatilla discusses the relevance of the Tetragrammaton in the teaching of the Rabbis and the fact that instruction in it was given only once in every seven years (Hulin 91b), as it was the "center" and the main issue of the Shmlttah (like the seventh day of the week, the Shabbat 258 ). [p. 98, 99]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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