1 Corinthians and the Temple Cult

[andrewcriddle]

The word θυσιαστηριον can be found in Jdg 2:2 for the altars of the inhabitants of the land. In Jdg 6:28, 30-32 it's an altar of Baal, also in 1 Kgs 16:32, 18:26, 2 Kgs 11:18. In 2 Kgs 21:5 it's an altar to all the powers of heaven.

Hi spin

I noted in my reply to Jay that θυσιαστηριον is occasionally used for altars of Baal. The altar in 2 Kings 21:5 is a pagan altar but one in the temple of Jerusalem itself.

Andrew Criddle

[andrewcriddle]

While the word is used in the Bible, it is not used to refer only to the altar in the Jerusalem Temple. For example, in James 2:21, it refers to the sacrifice of Issac: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Obviously Abraham's sacrifice was not done in the Jerusalem Temple. Again in Matthew:23:18, the term is used generally to mean any altar: "You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.'"

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Hi Jay

Abraham's altar is definitely an altar to Yahweh. Matthew 23:18 is definitely talking about the Jerusalem altar. (It is part of an argument about what is a binding oath for a pious Jew.)

Andrew Criddle

[andrewcriddle]

Hos 8:11 Because Ephraim has multiplied altars for sinning, they became for him altars for sinning.

This is another reference to altars to non-Yaweh Gods.

Hos 10:8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, will be destroyed. The thorn and the thistle will come up on their altars.

This is about an altar to Aven (vanity).

Ezekiel 6:6 In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your incense altars may be cut down, and your works may be abolished.

Here are more references to pagan altars.

Although the worship at these altars is clearly being criticised it is doubtful whether it refers to non-Yahweh worship. It may refer to corrupt worship at altars to Yahweh. (Hosea 12:4 Septuagint refers to the true God being found by Jacob at the house of On (house of Aven i.e. Bethel.)) It is unlikely that Israelites are still worshipping Baal during this period.

Although θυσιαστηριον is sometimes used in the Septuagint for non-Yahweh worship particularly altars to Baal. Altars for false worship are much more usually referred to as βωμός (high place). In the NT θυσιαστηριον always refers to an altar to the true God.

It is very doubtful that Paul in Corinthians could have regarded practice at pagan altars as a formal justification for Christian practice. (The link between verses 13 and 14 in chapter 9 is more than just an analogy.) Also there were formal rules for Jewish sacrifice in which portions of the sacrifice became holy/most holy and were strictly reserved for the priests. There were certainly rules in pagan sacrifice about how the meat should be distributed, with the sacrificers getting a special share, but there is less idea of a portion becoming specially sacred and strictly reserved for priests .

Andrew Criddle

[spin]

The word θυσιαστηριον can be found in Jdg 2:2 for the altars of the inhabitants of the land. In Jdg 6:28, 30-32 it's an altar of Baal, also in 1 Kgs 16:32, 18:26, 2 Kgs 11:18. In 2 Kgs 21:5 it's an altar to all the powers of heaven.

I noted in my reply to Jay that θυσιαστηριον is occasionally used for altars of Baal.

If you go back to my post, you'll note that I highlighted it in red. You already have a glimmer that you have a problem. Your initial complaint here was this:

• The word for idol's temple in 8:10 is quite different from the word for temple in 9:13 it is not a parallel. I agree that hIERON could be used for a pagan temple. But I would be surprised to see ThUSIASTHRION altar used of a pagan altar.

You would be surprised to see θυσιαστηριον used of a pagan altar, yet the LXX has no problem doing so.

The altar in 2 Kings 21:5 is a pagan altar but one in the temple of Jerusalem itself.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a pagan altar, does it Andrew?

[spin]

Although θυσιαστηριον is sometimes used in the Septuagint for non-Yahweh worship particularly altars to Baal. Altars for false worship are much more usually referred to as βωμός (high place). In the NT θυσιαστηριον always refers to an altar to the true God.

This is a terrible argument from silence. Where do you get all those discussions about pagan altars in the new testament? And βωμος is used a total of once in the new testament, so you certainly cannot make any generalizations based on that word.

[andrewcriddle]

The word θυσιαστηριον can be found in Jdg 2:2 for the altars of the inhabitants of the land. In Jdg 6:28, 30-32 it's an altar of Baal, also in 1 Kgs 16:32, 18:26, 2 Kgs 11:18. In 2 Kgs 21:5 it's an altar to all the powers of heaven.

I noted in my reply to Jay that θυσιαστηριον is occasionally used for altars of Baal.

If you go back to my post, you'll note that I highlighted it in red. You already have a glimmer that you have a problem. Your initial complaint here was this:

• The word for idol's temple in 8:10 is quite different from the word for temple in 9:13 it is not a parallel. I agree that hIERON could be used for a pagan temple. But I would be surprised to see ThUSIASTHRION altar used of a pagan altar.

You would be surprised to see θυσιαστηριον used of a pagan altar, yet the LXX has no problem doing so.

The altar in 2 Kings 21:5 is a pagan altar but one in the temple of Jerusalem itself.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a pagan altar, does it Andrew?

The Septuagint may be a little variable in usage but Maccabees seems more consistent. See 1 Maccabees 1 54 and 59

On the fifteenth day of the month of Kislev in the year 145, King Antiochus set up
The Awful Horror on the altar (θυσιαστηριον ) of the Temple, and pagan altars (
βωμός) were built in the towns throughout Judea.

On the twenty-fifth of the month, these same evil people offered sacrifices on the pagan altar (βωμός) erected on top of the altar(θυσιαστηριον) in the Temple.

and 2 Maccabees 10:2-3

They tore down the altars (βωμός) which foreigners had set up in the marketplace and destroyed the other places of worship that had been built. 3 They purified the Temple and built a new altar (θυσιαστηριον) . Then, with new fire started by striking flint, they offered sacrifice for the first time in two years, burned incense, lighted the lamps, and set out the sacred loaves

This is probably relevant to the NT situation.

Andrew Criddle

[spin]

The word θυσιαστηριον can be found in Jdg 2:2 for the altars of the inhabitants of the land. In Jdg 6:28, 30-32 it's an altar of Baal, also in 1 Kgs 16:32, 18:26, 2 Kgs 11:18. In 2 Kgs 21:5 it's an altar to all the powers of heaven.

I noted in my reply to Jay that θυσιαστηριον is occasionally used for altars of Baal.

If you go back to my post, you'll note that I highlighted it in red. You already have a glimmer that you have a problem. Your initial complaint here was this:

• The word for idol's temple in 8:10 is quite different from the word for temple in 9:13 it is not a parallel. I agree that hIERON could be used for a pagan temple. But I would be surprised to see ThUSIASTHRION altar used of a pagan altar.

You would be surprised to see θυσιαστηριον used of a pagan altar, yet the LXX has no problem doing so.

The altar in 2 Kings 21:5 is a pagan altar but one in the temple of Jerusalem itself.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a pagan altar, does it Andrew?

The Septuagint may be a little variable in usage but Maccabees seems more consistent. See 1 Maccabees 1 54 and 59

On the fifteenth day of the month of Kislev in the year 145, King Antiochus set up
The Awful Horror on the altar (θυσιαστηριον ) of the Temple, and pagan altars (
βωμός) were built in the towns throughout Judea.

On the twenty-fifth of the month, these same evil people offered sacrifices on the pagan altar (βωμός) erected on top of the altar(θυσιαστηριον) in the Temple.

and 2 Maccabees 10:2-3

They tore down the altars (βωμός) which foreigners had set up in the marketplace and destroyed the other places of worship that had been built. 3 They purified the Temple and built a new altar (θυσιαστηριον) . Then, with new fire started by striking flint, they offered sacrifice for the first time in two years, burned incense, lighted the lamps, and set out the sacred loaves

If we look at biblical usage we find βωμος used in Num 3:10 to describe the altar of Aaron. In Joshua 22:34 we have an altar as a testimony that the lord is their god. Then there is the interesting verse LXX Amos 7:9 which says, talking of the people of Israel, "And the joyful altars (βωμοι) shall be abolished, and the sacrifices of Israel shall be set aside".

This is probably relevant to the NT situation.

Once again that purely opinion-driven "probably". There is no reason offered here why 1 Macc should be relevant.

Note to Peter: oh please can we have a few more BB code text markups? I really needed that strikethrough here.

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for pointing out my mistake with the words "térion" (place) and "Therion" (wild animal/beast).

I think that the fact that the word thysiatherion is found mainly in Philo, Josephus, the Hebrew Scriptures and Paul, and not by any Greek or Roman writer suggest that the original Pauline writer was from the wealthiest upper echelon of Jewish culture, like Philo and Josephus. His familiarity with letter writing would also indicate this. We should remember that there was no email or post office in those days. The ability to write and deliver letters to multiple cities would have been reserved for Roman officials and the wealthiest persons, able to afford to send slaves on long trips to deliver the letters and come back with answers.

Religions tend to copy from each other. No doubt there were some Jewish practices at the time that dated back to Cannonite times, but most practices would have been similar to practices in contemporary Greek and Roman Temples. In the same way, ritual practices resemble each other today. For example, a contemporary Jewish religious service contains audience singing, reading of Biblical passages, sermons, and call and response chanting, announcement of community events, ending with snacks and drinks. One finds the same things in most Christian church services. Movies, Broadway musicals, magic shows,operas, ballets and stand-up comedy shows all tend to be similar to themselves and different from each other as they all develop their own rituals based on trial and error and imitation.

We should assume that anything that was done in the Hebrew Temple in Jerusalem was also done at thousands of Greek and Roman temples throughout the empire unless there is evidence that it was unique.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

The word thysiatherion is made up of two Greek words Thysia, meaning rite or sacrifice and Therion, meaning beast. It refers to a beast-sacrifice.

This seems to be a mistake. The word θηρίον means offering or sacrifice, the word θηρίον means beast, and θυσιαστήριον means altar, with the etymology coming "from a derivation of thusia and -térion (suff. denoting place)" according to the NAS exhaustive concordance. Notice that the Greek word for beast starts with the letter theta, not tau.

While there are several interesting examples in the translation of the Septuagint, original compositions in Greek may be more relevant. It is "a word found only in Philo (e. g. vita Moys. iii. § 10, cf. § 7; Josephus, Antiquities 8, 4, 1) and the Biblical and ecclesiastical writings" according to Strong's, which might be the first clue in fact. There is indeed no way to assume that the word here used for altar always refers to the Jerusalem one. As you point out, "the Christian Scriptures use the word to refer to altars to Yaweh, sometimes in Jerusalem and sometimes not and to refer to altars in general."

Really the best way to read this passage might be to divide it into three thoughts or questions, instead of assuming a strict parallel between the first two:

Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple?
And those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?
In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

The text of 1 Corinthians attests that Christians share a meal at table in memory of the Lord. There is presumably a leader at the table of some kind. So perhaps the second question (or second half of the first question) regards those who serve at their table/altar and share in the offering of bread and wine.

Then the first part could refer to those who are employed at temples who get their food from the temple, and the last one refers to Paul himself, who proclaims the gospel and has a right to a living by the gospel (not, apparently, that he exercises it--but still, he says, I could if I wanted to).

This leaves the other passage:

1 Cor 10:18 "Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?"

So unusual an expression this "Israel after the flesh"! Where else do we remember this famous phrase?

2 Cor 5:16. "Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know [him so] no more."

The understanding "after the flesh" is the kind that has passed away, that is no more. Something similar might be implied in 1 Cor 10:18 by the qualifying phrase.

I understand that these may not be typical interpretations, and I am not committed to them. But we must seriously consider the state of the evidence and all possible explanations before deciding on something that bears on so weighty a question for our understanding of Christian origins such as the date, authorship, and authenticity of the Pauline epistles.

[Peter Kirby]

Split from Bernard Muller's megathread:

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