A brief note on Hebrews 12.3 (contradiction by sinners).

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Ben C. Smith
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A brief note on Hebrews 12.3 (contradiction by sinners).

Post by Ben C. Smith »

In part 3 of his supplementary article on the epistle to the Hebrews, entitled The Cosmic Christ of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Earl Doherty finds occasion to ward off a possible threat to a purely mythicist understanding of the epistle in 12.3. He quotes and comments on this verse and its immediate context as follows (emphasis mine):

Thus when some glimmer of those [Christian] origins [according to orthodoxy] seems to lie buried in the text, it is understandable that it will be seized upon. Such a glimmer is thought to be found at the opening of chapter 12.

2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith,
who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame,
and has sat down at the right hand of God’s throne.
3 For consider him who has endured such hostility/rebellion from sinful men,
so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

This bare mention of the cross does nothing to elucidate the nature and location of the crucifixion, whether earthly or heavenly, and there is not an echo of the resurrection in flesh. Verse 3 might be a little more problematic. Is this a reference to the Sanhedrin, or Pilate, or the Pharisees, or perhaps those who took part in his execution? We must first realize that the idea is offered in order to provide a parallel to the experience of the readers who themselves have been subjected to persecution by “sinful men.” To serve this purpose, the author need merely have some scriptural precedent in mind which he could identify with the Son. Note, too, that the reference is quite vague: “endured hostility”; specifics such as abuse by the Sanhedrin or scourging by the Romans would have made all the difference here. Alternatively, God himself certainly endured the hostility or rebellion of sinful men in the course of scriptural history, so it would not be a stretch for the author to imagine that the Son, too, could be thought of as having suffered the same thing, again derived from scripture.

He goes on even to propose tentatively that a slightly attested manuscript variant might be the original reading, that hostility against him by those who sin might have originally read hostility by those who sin against themselves.

But, if the purpose is to point out that this passage contains no necessary reference to the abuse of Jesus at the hands of overzealous Roman soldiers as described in the gospels, we need look no further than the word translated as hostility/rebellion in the passage as Doherty renders it: αντιλογια. The word, at its most basic, simply means contradiction. We find a good usage of it in Psalm 106.32 (105.32 LXX):

They also provoked him to wrath at the waters of contradiction [Greek αντιλογια; Hebrew Meribah, the place of strife], so that it went hard with Moses on their account.

When we turn back to Exodus 17.3 to see what it was that the people actually did, we find that they murmered. They grumbled. They contradicted or questioned both Moses and the Lord.

Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer writes:

ἀντιλογία, however, denotes nothing else than contradiction; and what is meant is, the contending against Christ’s divine Sonship and Messianic dignity. The notion of opposition and ill-usage in act, which is ordinarily assigned to it (still also by Böhme, Bleek, de Wette, Tholuck, Bloomfield, Delitzsch, Alford, and Maier) along with that of contradiction, this word never has. Even ἀντιλέγειν, to which appeal is made, has nowhere the sense of a hostile resistance manifesting itself in outward actions.

Quite a bit of allowance could even be made here for overstatement on the part of Meyer and the point would still stand: the most that we are entitled to read into 12.3 is that Jesus has sometimes endured conceptual or verbal abuse from sinful humans. None of the physical abuse from the gospel accounts of the passion need be skulking in the background. It is quite unnecessary to appeal, with Doherty, to the vagueness of the hostility expressed in 12.3. The most likely kind of hostility, conceptual or verbal as opposed to physical, is enough, IMHO.

Ben.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

Post by andrewcriddle »

Can you show contradiction/opposition in this sense to someone without believing/acknowledging their existence ?

If not, the passage implies that there were sinful people who disagreed with Christ but recognised him as a real being.

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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

Post by Ben C. Smith »

andrewcriddle wrote:Can you show contradiction/opposition in this sense to someone without believing/acknowledging their existence ?

If not, the passage implies that there were sinful people who disagreed with Christ but recognised him as a real being.
I agree that the author seems to regard the sinners as treating Christ as a real being and opposing him in some way. (A demonstration that coddling an αντιλογια against someone can consist precisely of not believing in his or her very existence would obviously compromise my agreement here.) What I am contending is that this opposition need not be seen as physical, and therefore need not imply details from the passion (or from the career, for that matter) of Jesus.

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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

Post by Bernard Muller »

I agree that the author seems to regard the sinners as treating Christ as a real being and opposing him in some way. (A demonstration that coddling an αντιλογια against someone can consist precisely of not believing in his or her very existence would obviously compromise my agreement here.) What I am contending is that this opposition need not be seen as physical, and therefore need not imply details from the passion (or from the career, for that matter) of Jesus.
I noticed "has endured" in "For consider him who has endured such hostility/rebellion from sinful men" is in the perfect tense, which according to the BLB http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... nc_1145003:
The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
It seems to me the author was not thinking here about a contemporary situation where sinners would show hostility towards Christ when in heaven, but to a prior past situation, such as when Christ was on earth.

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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

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Bernard, does the perfect tense of this participle mean, in and of itself, that Christ was on earth when he endured such things? Or does the on earth part come from other, external considerations?
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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
Bernard, does the perfect tense of this participle mean, in and of itself, that Christ was on earth when he endured such things? Or does the on earth part come from other, external considerations?
The perfect tense of "has endured" is in the perfect tense, and even as a participle, describes an action in the past and terminated. Did this action happen when Christ was believed to be heaven, years earlier? I doubt it. I do not see why and when sinful men would have shown hostility to the heavenly Christ in the past and then stop. It appears that when in heaven, Christ does not have to endure gainsaying.
So that hostility from sinful men had to occur at a particular time in the past when Christ was in a different form and at a different place, and preferably in contact with "bad" men. In these conditions, earth is the logical place for Christ to have been subject to opposition. And yes, the external considerations would support that conclusion, certainly not go against it.

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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:I do not see why and when sinful men would have shown hostility to the heavenly Christ in the past and then stop.
Do you see why and when sinful men would have shown hostility to the heavenly God in the past (at Meribah) and then stopped (Psalm 105.32 LXX, referring back to Numbers 20.13)?
It appears that when in heaven, Christ does not have to endure gainsaying.
Does it appear to you (in light of Psalm 105.32 LXX and Numbers 20.13) that, when in heaven, the Lord God does not have to endure gainsaying?

Ben.
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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

Post by Bernard Muller »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:I do not see why and when sinful men would have shown hostility to the heavenly Christ in the past and then stop.
Do you see why and when sinful men would have shown hostility to the heavenly God in the past (at Meribah) and then stopped (Psalm 105.32 LXX, referring back to Numbers 20.13)?
It appears that when in heaven, Christ does not have to endure gainsaying.
Does it appear to you (in light of Psalm 105.32 LXX and Numbers 20.13) that, when in heaven, the Lord God does not have to endure gainsaying?

Ben.
Ps 105.32 LXX: They angered him [Yahweh] also at the waters of Meribah,
so that Moses was troubled for their sakes;


Numbers 20.13 This is the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD [God], and he was sanctified in them.

What you propose is far-fetched: both quotes are about God and relate to events during the exodus. And I do not see any trace about inspiring the author of Hebrews to write what he did.

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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:I do not see why and when sinful men would have shown hostility to the heavenly Christ in the past and then stop.
Do you see why and when sinful men would have shown hostility to the heavenly God in the past (at Meribah) and then stopped (Psalm 105.32 LXX, referring back to Numbers 20.13)?
It appears that when in heaven, Christ does not have to endure gainsaying.
Does it appear to you (in light of Psalm 105.32 LXX and Numbers 20.13) that, when in heaven, the Lord God does not have to endure gainsaying?

Ben.
Ps 105.32 LXX: They angered him [Yahweh] also at the waters of Meribah,
so that Moses was troubled for their sakes;


Numbers 20.13 This is the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD [God], and he was sanctified in them.

What you propose is far-fetched: both quotes are about God and relate to events during the exodus. And I do not see any trace about inspiring the author of Hebrews to write what he did.

Cordially, Bernard
That is not what I am saying at all. I am not saying that Hebrews drew inspiration for this line from Meribah.

I am asking you why Christ in heaven cannot be shown hostility (αντιλογια, Hebrews 12.3) by people on earth during a particular past event when God himself in heaven was shown hostility (αντιλογια, Psalm 105.32 LXX and Numbers 20.13) by people on earth during a particular past event.

You said that you could not see why a heavenly Christ would be shown hostility by earthly men at a particular time in the past, remember? Well, Psalm 105.32 LXX and Numbers 20.13 show God being shown hostility by earthly men at a particular time in the past. So why is it so unlikely with Christ?

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Re: A brief note on Hebrews 12.2-3 (contradiction by sinners

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
That is not what I am saying at all. I am not saying that Hebrews drew inspiration for this line from Meribah.

I am asking you why Christ in heaven cannot be shown hostility (αντιλογια, Hebrews 12.3) by people on earth during a particular past event when God himself in heaven was shown hostility (αντιλογια, Psalm 105.32 LXX and Numbers 20.13) by people on earth during a particular past event.

You said that you could not see why a heavenly Christ would be shown hostility by earthly men at a particular time in the past, remember? Well, Psalm 105.32 LXX and Numbers 20.13 show God being shown hostility by earthly men at a particular time in the past. So why is it so unlikely with Christ?
Hostility against Christ continuously existed from the time he was believed back in heaven. If not, then every men or women preached to by apostles would have become Christians: that did not happen. There is no indication that hostility ever stopped before Hebrews was written. At what event do you think "sinful" men would abstain to show opposition to Christ, opposite to what they did earlier?

Cordially, Bernard
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