Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket case

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Peter Kirby
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Ethnarch of King Aretas? the legendary Damascus basket case

Post by Peter Kirby »

Another point of contact between the Pauline letters and the pre-70 AD period occurs in 2 Cor 12:31-33, which has the passage about Paul being let down in a basket through a window in the wall to escape the "ethnarch under King Aretas," the last known Nabatean king by this name having died in 40 AD.

The story seems fairly implausible, between the romantic escape and the otherwise uncorroborated Nabatean presence in Damascus, but it does show that the author of the letter (or these verses of the letter) implies that Paul had been active in the period before 40 AD.

Regarding the relative chronology of the Hauptbriefe, I find it interesting that Marcion's arrangement follows the same relative order that modern scholars have deduced from the internal evidence of the letters (Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Romans) as reported by Epiphanius:

https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonm ... e-paulines
Gal, 1 & 2 Cor, Rom, 1 & 2 Thes, Eph, Col, Phm, and Php

(Tertullian agrees here, with the exception of treating Philemon last.)

One simple interpretation of this, however, is that Marcion was also attempting to put things in descending order by length but that he viewed the Corinthian letters as a combination, the Thessalonian letters as a combination, and Colossians and Philemon as a combination, in which case the only major exception to descending order by length becomes the primacy of Galatians (although our Ephesians is just a wee a bit longer than 1 & 2 Thessalonians combined).
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by spin »

Peter Kirby wrote:Another point of contact between the Pauline letters and the pre-70 AD period occurs in 2 Cor 12:31-33, which has the passage about Paul being let down in a basket through a window in the wall to escape the "ethnarch under King Aretas," the last known Nabatean king by this name having died in 40 AD.

The story seems fairly implausible, between the romantic escape and the otherwise uncorroborated Nabatean presence in Damascus, but it does show that the author of the letter (or these verses of the letter) implies that Paul had been active in the period before 40 AD.
The story causes a wry smile, considering the only time we know that the Nabataeans had control of Damascus was briefly before Pompey's arrival there in 64 BCE. The thought that the last Aretas had control over the city is laughable, given that Nabataea was not directly within the Roman sphere of influence, ie not a tributary state or a province, and had attacked the Roman client, Herod Antipas, stimulating Tiberius in his last year to attempt to sent his Syrian legate, Vitellius, to seek retaliation against Aretas, though, when Tiberius died, Caligula curtailed the action. It seems ridiculous to posit that the Romans would have given any privileges to Aretas, such as would give him control over Damascus.
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by Blood »

Peter Kirby wrote:Another point of contact between the Pauline letters and the pre-70 AD period occurs in 2 Cor 12:31-33, which has the passage about Paul being let down in a basket through a window in the wall to escape the "ethnarch under King Aretas," the last known Nabatean king by this name having died in 40 AD.
Did you mean Acts 12:31-33?
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by spin »

Blood wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:Another point of contact between the Pauline letters and the pre-70 AD period occurs in 2 Cor 12:31-33, which has the passage about Paul being let down in a basket through a window in the wall to escape the "ethnarch under King Aretas," the last known Nabatean king by this name having died in 40 AD.
Did you mean Acts 12:31-33?
?? Try 2 Cor 11:31-33
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by Bernard Muller »

Another point of contact between the Pauline letters and the pre-70 AD period occurs in 2 Cor 12:31-33, which has the passage about Paul being let down in a basket through a window in the wall to escape the "ethnarch under King Aretas," the last known Nabatean king by this name having died in 40 AD.

The story seems fairly implausible, between the romantic escape and the otherwise uncorroborated Nabatean presence in Damascus, but it does show that the author of the letter (or these verses of the letter) implies that Paul had been active in the period before 40 AD.
I do not think the story is implausible:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p65.htm
Furthermore, the city gates of a city were closed at night, so an escape down the city wall makes sense.
The story reappears in Acts, but the etnarch got replaced by the Jews. I rather trust Paul on this matter than "Luke".

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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by dewitness »

Peter Kirby wrote:Another point of contact between the Pauline letters and the pre-70 AD period occurs in 2 Cor 12:31-33, which has the passage about Paul being let down in a basket through a window in the wall to escape the "ethnarch under King Aretas," the last known Nabatean king by this name having died in 40 AD.

The story seems fairly implausible, between the romantic escape and the otherwise uncorroborated Nabatean presence in Damascus, but it does show that the author of the letter (or these verses of the letter) implies that Paul had been active in the period before 40 AD.
1 Cor. 12:312-33 does not show a point of contact between the Pauline letters and the pre-70 AD period.

2 COR. 12.31-33 suggests that the author of 2 Cor. knew Acts of the Apostles and that the author is implying that he is Saul/Paul in Acts.
There is no indication in Acts and the Pauline Corpus that Pauline letters were composed since the time of Aretas.

Acts 9:25 KJV
Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket.
2 Corinthians 11:33 KJV
And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

Peter Kirby wrote: Regarding the relative chronology of the Hauptbriefe, I find it interesting that Marcion's arrangement follows the same relative order that modern scholars have deduced from the internal evidence of the letters (Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Romans) as reported by Epiphanius...
I am surprised you make mention of a 4th-5th century Epiphanius when he was not a contemporary of Marcion and the 2nd century.

Justin Martyr, a CONTEMPORARY of Marcion, does not claim that Marcion wrote or had in his possession any letters of Paul. Justin ADMITTED that Marcion preached another God and another son and it is corroborated by Ephraem the Syrian in his "Against Marcion III."

Hippolytus in "Refutation Against All Heresies" 7 claimed that Marcion did not use the TEACHINGS of Paul but those of Empedocles.

It makes no sense that Marcion would have letters in his possession or invented the Pauline Corpus with events that happened 100 YEARS BEFORE Marcion was born.

Marcion did not need a story in 2 Cor. 12 that Paul was in a basket in Damascus 100 years earlier.
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by Peter Kirby »

Haters gonna hate, or as Jesus said, I can't get no respect at home.

So, like, you might believe Bernard that basket dropping Damascus stories ruled by Nabatean kings are perfectly normal, and you might believe that the story was influenced by Acts. I know I don't believe the former, and I accept the plausibility of the latter. Whatever.
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by Bernard Muller »

ruled by Nabatean kings
Peter, on my blog post on the matter, I never said Damascus was ruled by Aretas at that time.
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p65.htm
Where did you get the idea I hate you? If it is what you mean.
I wrote my blog post long ago, and I did not have you in mind, nor knew about your position.
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Last edited by Bernard Muller on Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by Peter Kirby »

Sure, but 2 Corinthians seems to say so. It's only the implausibility of the idea that makes us read the text otherwise.
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by Bernard Muller »

2 Corinthians seems to say so
It may seem, but it does not say so.
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