How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
- Peter Kirby
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How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/artic ... _jesus.htm
Anyone else read this?
It kind of reminds me of Muller's website, but on opposite day... and actually quite bad (not just middling with some bright spots).
No I was not particularly impressed.
If this kind of thing (in quality of presentation) is popularly referenced in discussion of "mythicism" (and I think maybe it is??), it's another reason to be very, very patient with the historical Jesus side of the debate. They've put up with a lot of crap over the years, and they are understandably impatient.
I suppose I should mention an example, so-- how about that solution to the synoptic problem. Yeah. Solved in just a few paragraphs, and a theory nobody's heard before. Yay.
Anyone else read this?
It kind of reminds me of Muller's website, but on opposite day... and actually quite bad (not just middling with some bright spots).
No I was not particularly impressed.
If this kind of thing (in quality of presentation) is popularly referenced in discussion of "mythicism" (and I think maybe it is??), it's another reason to be very, very patient with the historical Jesus side of the debate. They've put up with a lot of crap over the years, and they are understandably impatient.
I suppose I should mention an example, so-- how about that solution to the synoptic problem. Yeah. Solved in just a few paragraphs, and a theory nobody's heard before. Yay.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
- Peter Kirby
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Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
Some of the arguments aren't that bad, of course. But a lot of them are just rehashes without citing the source. It's not difficult to squeak in some hit-or-miss decent arguments by copying other people who are more consistently presenting decent arguments, but it's nice to note the source.
Of course, the exuberance of youth is a reason for not looking at it all too harshly. I was the same, in high school.
Of course, the exuberance of youth is a reason for not looking at it all too harshly. I was the same, in high school.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
- neilgodfrey
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Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
Yes, I have read that page. I didn't think it was so "quite bad" as it has come across to you, however. I did tell the author that I would have preferred to see more citations for his ideas throughout and he agreed it needed a lot of work in that area, iirc.
I recognize where some of the arguments (or the assertions) are coming from and also think more needs to be covered as background to justify some of them.
Added later.......
My own reading was more rapid than attentive to every detail. It is after all quite lengthy. It might be useful to list a few of the specific weaknesses. I might then pass these on to the author to suggest improvements.
I recognize where some of the arguments (or the assertions) are coming from and also think more needs to be covered as background to justify some of them.
Added later.......
My own reading was more rapid than attentive to every detail. It is after all quite lengthy. It might be useful to list a few of the specific weaknesses. I might then pass these on to the author to suggest improvements.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- maryhelena
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Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
Well now, at least a fictional Jesus is right there in the pages of the gospels - in the hand so to speak.Peter Kirby wrote:http://www.rationalrevolution.net/artic ... _jesus.htm
Anyone else read this?
It kind of reminds me of Muller's website, but on opposite day... and actually quite bad (not just middling with some bright spots).
No I was not particularly impressed.
If this kind of thing (in quality of presentation) is popularly referenced in discussion of "mythicism" (and I think maybe it is??), it's another reason to be very, very patient with the historical Jesus side of the debate. They've put up with a lot of crap over the years, and they are understandably impatient.
I suppose I should mention an example, so-- how about that solution to the synoptic problem. Yeah. Solved in just a few paragraphs, and a theory nobody's heard before. Yay.
And where is Carrier's 'Jesus began in the Christian mind as a celestial being' to be found? Which is easier to believe - a man that walked the sands of Palestine and ended up on a Roman cross - or a celestial being 'walking' the heavenly 'sands' and ending up on a 'heavenly' cross? What's that old saying - 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'....There really is no contest here.
So yes, in the historicist vs ahistoricist/mythicist debate the historicists do have a trump card. For all their own interpretations of what the Jesus figure was (apocalyptic prophet etc) they are sticking to their guns re a historical figure that walked those sands of Palestine. They do have a bird in hand.
As to the myriad of non-historicist theories out there - methinks it's the mythicists that are too hung up over these than any historicist. Rather than scolding all it's wayward 'children' perhaps the ahistoricists/mythicists could try listening - maybe, just maybe, there might be gold found amidst all the dross...
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
W.B. Yeats
- Peter Kirby
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Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
I don't want to come across as overly critical, and I don't really want to take the time to get involved in picking it apart. Mostly just some invalid arguments, but that's not an uncommon problem.neilgodfrey wrote:Yes, I have read that page. I didn't think it was so "quite bad" as it has come across to you, however. I did tell the author that I would have preferred to see more citations for his ideas throughout and he agreed it needed a lot of work in that area, iirc.
I recognize where some of the arguments (or the assertions) are coming from and also think more needs to be covered as background to justify some of them.
Added later.......
My own reading was more rapid than attentive to every detail. It is after all quite lengthy. It might be useful to list a few of the specific weaknesses. I might then pass these on to the author to suggest improvements.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
Are there some other religions whose god is also a man, of course not an ordinary man?
I do not speak of prophets like Moses or Muhammad, but clearly of a man becoming a god.
Possibly adoptionism...
I do not speak of prophets like Moses or Muhammad, but clearly of a man becoming a god.
Possibly adoptionism...
Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
Peter Kirby wrote:http://www.rationalrevolution.net/artic ... _jesus.htm
Anyone else read this?
It kind of reminds me of Muller's website, but on opposite day... and actually quite bad (not just middling with some bright spots).
No I was not particularly impressed.
If this kind of thing (in quality of presentation) is popularly referenced in discussion of "mythicism" (and I think maybe it is??), it's another reason to be very, very patient with the historical Jesus side of the debate. They've put up with a lot of crap over the years, and they are understandably impatient.
I suppose I should mention an example, so-- how about that solution to the synoptic problem. Yeah. Solved in just a few paragraphs, and a theory nobody's heard before. Yay.
Price, like most people, follows the Biblical narrative too much to be of much value, I think. Paraphrasing and rationalizing the Bible is not going to help us discover actual facts about the origin of Christianity.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
While I think it's necessary to look beyond this, it's nevertheless a good start. I'm not even sure that there are that many Bible scholars who go further than this.Blood wrote:Price, like most people, follows the Biblical narrative too much to be of much value, I think. Paraphrasing and rationalizing the Bible is not going to help us discover actual facts about the origin of Christianity.
It also depends a bit on what you expect your audience is. For most people out there, Bart Ehrman is already a radical. Working with the Bible text itself is a good start if you want to start from a bit more common knowledge with "normal" people.
Of course, a big unsourced info dump is usually dismissed, too, so there's some work necessary.
Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
And where'd he get those pictures?
I felt like I was looking at a publication from the JWs or Adventists.
DCH
I felt like I was looking at a publication from the JWs or Adventists.
DCH
Re: How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity??
Marcionism
Nestorianism
Docetism
Apollinarism
Arianism
Catholicism of Nicaea
All these varieties of Christianity have different "définitions" of JC. What is the good one? Perhaps Arianism...
[Hypocrite] What were the conclusions of the Jesus Seminar?[/Hypocrite]
Nestorianism
Docetism
Apollinarism
Arianism
Catholicism of Nicaea
All these varieties of Christianity have different "définitions" of JC. What is the good one? Perhaps Arianism...
[Hypocrite] What were the conclusions of the Jesus Seminar?[/Hypocrite]
Last edited by Huon on Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.