A Non-HJ Interpretation of Paul's Letters
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:51 pm
Split from the Vinny blog thread:
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1440
NAS Romans 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), (Rom 10:6 NAS)
NAS Romans 10:7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." (Rom 10:7 NAS)
NAS 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. (1Co 15:47 NAS)
Ephesians 1:20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, (Eph 1:20 ASV)
NAS Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men." (Eph 4:8 NAS)
NAS Ephesians 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Eph 4:9 NAS)
NAS Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph 4:10 NAS)
NAS Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; (Phi 3:20 NAS)
NAS Colossians 1:15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Col 1:15 NAS)
NAS Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. (Col 1:16 NAS)
NAS 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
NAS 2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, (2Th 1:7 NAS)
Now, if there were actually more than 10 Pauline scholars in the world who were trying to get at the meaning of the text, without lots of presuppositions, we'd start to see questions asked like:
(1) Where is Jesus from?
ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ (1Co 15:47 BGT) or πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως (Col 1:15 BGT)
'the second man is from heaven' or 'the firstborn of all creation'
(2) So, where exactly did this Jesus descend, when he did so in order to die and get raised up from the dead? Where'd he ascend from?
τὴν ἄβυσσον (Rom 10:7 BGT) or τὰ κατώτερα [μέρη] τῆς γῆς (Eph 4:9 BGT)
'the abyss' or 'the lower parts of the earth'
(3) And would you say that he's coming back to earth again, eschatologically speaking?
NAS Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; (Phi 3:20 NAS)
NAS 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
NAS 2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, (2Th 1:7 NAS)
NAS 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. (1Th 5:2 NAS)
(4) Interesting, Paul, interesting. Let's just take that as a no for now. Okay, what kind of man is this Jesus?
NAS Romans 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God (did): sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and (as an offering) for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, (Rom 8:3 NAS)
(4-b) Wait, that doesn't seem right ... I'm sorry, what was that?
NAS Philippians 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Phi 2:7 NAS)
(5) Okay, well, if you insist. I'll take your word for it then. But why would he have to be found in appearance as a man, in the likeness of flesh?
NAS 1 Corinthians 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory; (1Co 2:7 NAS)
NAS 1 Corinthians 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; (1Co 2:8 NAS)
(5-b) What'you talkin' 'bout, Paulus?
NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, (Col 2:13 NAS)
NAS Colossians 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col 2:14 NAS)
NAS Colossians 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers (τὰς ἀρχὰς) and authorities (τὰς ἐξουσίας), He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. (Col 2:15 NAS)
(5-c) Disarmed the rulers and the authorities? Are you high or something? How can that possibly happen?
NAS Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree "--
(5-d) Say that again?
NAS Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, (Eph 2:14 NAS)
NAS Ephesians 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. (Eph 2:16 NAS)
(6) Clear as mud, boss. But let's try a new angle: what kind of ἀρχόντων could be fooled into killing a man appearing to be a man? Be disarmed?
NAS Ephesians 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince (ἄρχοντα) of the power (ἐξουσίας) of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (Eph 2:2 NAS)
(7) Okay that makes a little more sense. After all you already told us where he descended for his resurrectional activity, and it was 'the abyss', i.e., 'the lower parts of the earth'. So some spirit dudes are there, and they thought he was just some man, not the Lord of glory. Somehow them killing him fulfilled some divine purpose, abolishing the curse of the law's covenant, when the rulers were tricked. Cool, cool. I guess you could say he paid the blood price. But if he was incognito when he died, how'd he get the name Jesus?
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is lord, to the glory of God the father. (Phil 2:8-11)
(8) Alrighty then. But just one more thing... don't you seem to contradict yourself on a lot of this elsewhere??
We ask you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us. (2 Thess 2:1-2)
There you have it, folks. You heard it here first. This is reporter Peter Kirby live with the letters of Paul, signing off.
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1440
NAS Romans 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), (Rom 10:6 NAS)
NAS Romans 10:7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." (Rom 10:7 NAS)
NAS 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. (1Co 15:47 NAS)
Ephesians 1:20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, (Eph 1:20 ASV)
NAS Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men." (Eph 4:8 NAS)
NAS Ephesians 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Eph 4:9 NAS)
NAS Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph 4:10 NAS)
NAS Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; (Phi 3:20 NAS)
NAS Colossians 1:15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Col 1:15 NAS)
NAS Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. (Col 1:16 NAS)
NAS 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
NAS 2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, (2Th 1:7 NAS)
Now, if there were actually more than 10 Pauline scholars in the world who were trying to get at the meaning of the text, without lots of presuppositions, we'd start to see questions asked like:
(1) Where is Jesus from?
ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ (1Co 15:47 BGT) or πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως (Col 1:15 BGT)
'the second man is from heaven' or 'the firstborn of all creation'
(2) So, where exactly did this Jesus descend, when he did so in order to die and get raised up from the dead? Where'd he ascend from?
τὴν ἄβυσσον (Rom 10:7 BGT) or τὰ κατώτερα [μέρη] τῆς γῆς (Eph 4:9 BGT)
'the abyss' or 'the lower parts of the earth'
(3) And would you say that he's coming back to earth again, eschatologically speaking?
NAS Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; (Phi 3:20 NAS)
NAS 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
NAS 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
NAS 2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, (2Th 1:7 NAS)
NAS 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. (1Th 5:2 NAS)
(4) Interesting, Paul, interesting. Let's just take that as a no for now. Okay, what kind of man is this Jesus?
NAS Romans 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God (did): sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and (as an offering) for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, (Rom 8:3 NAS)
(4-b) Wait, that doesn't seem right ... I'm sorry, what was that?
NAS Philippians 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Phi 2:7 NAS)
(5) Okay, well, if you insist. I'll take your word for it then. But why would he have to be found in appearance as a man, in the likeness of flesh?
NAS 1 Corinthians 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory; (1Co 2:7 NAS)
NAS 1 Corinthians 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; (1Co 2:8 NAS)
(5-b) What'you talkin' 'bout, Paulus?
NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, (Col 2:13 NAS)
NAS Colossians 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col 2:14 NAS)
NAS Colossians 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers (τὰς ἀρχὰς) and authorities (τὰς ἐξουσίας), He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. (Col 2:15 NAS)
(5-c) Disarmed the rulers and the authorities? Are you high or something? How can that possibly happen?
NAS Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree "--
(5-d) Say that again?
NAS Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, (Eph 2:14 NAS)
NAS Ephesians 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. (Eph 2:16 NAS)
(6) Clear as mud, boss. But let's try a new angle: what kind of ἀρχόντων could be fooled into killing a man appearing to be a man? Be disarmed?
NAS Ephesians 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince (ἄρχοντα) of the power (ἐξουσίας) of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (Eph 2:2 NAS)
(7) Okay that makes a little more sense. After all you already told us where he descended for his resurrectional activity, and it was 'the abyss', i.e., 'the lower parts of the earth'. So some spirit dudes are there, and they thought he was just some man, not the Lord of glory. Somehow them killing him fulfilled some divine purpose, abolishing the curse of the law's covenant, when the rulers were tricked. Cool, cool. I guess you could say he paid the blood price. But if he was incognito when he died, how'd he get the name Jesus?
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is lord, to the glory of God the father. (Phil 2:8-11)
(8) Alrighty then. But just one more thing... don't you seem to contradict yourself on a lot of this elsewhere??
We ask you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us. (2 Thess 2:1-2)
There you have it, folks. You heard it here first. This is reporter Peter Kirby live with the letters of Paul, signing off.