translation problems

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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translation problems

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Especially our ficino was always so kind in the past to help others with problems with the Greek language. Many thanks to him!

I open this thread in the hope that a helping hand is here also in the future.

The rule of this thread should be that the questioner has done his job, but has not come to a satisfactory result because it is very complicated.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: translation problems

Post by Peter Kirby »

An interesting idea! For now, I've stickied it!
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: translation problems

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Peter Kirby wrote:An interesting idea! For now, I've stickied it!
Thanks.

Of course ;) , I currently have a problem. It´s a word in Mark 6:19

δὲἩρῳδιὰςἐνεῖχεναὐτῷκαὶἤθελεναὐτὸνἀποκτεῖναικαὶοὐκἠδύνατο
But <->theHerodias...himandwishedhimto killandnotwas able

1) If I understand correctly, then „ἐνεῖχεν” is a compound word of “ἐν” an “έχω“ and means literally in the first sense “have-within” (For example in Mark 9:50 “ἔχετε ἐν ἑαυτοῖς ἅλα” means “have in yourselves salt”) The word “ἐνεῖχεν” is Active Imperfect Indicative.

2) The most comparable case I've found is LXX-Gen 49,23: “εἰς ὃν διαβουλευόμενοι ἐλοιδόρουν, καὶ ἐνεῖχον αὐτῷ κύριοι τοξευμάτων” (usual translation: Against whom men taking evil counsel reproached [him], and the archers pressed hard upon him.) But that doesn't help.

3) I think the best overview with the most explanatory notes about “ἐνεῖχεν” is studylight.org and also perseus

4) It seems to me that the usual translation „had a grudge against him“ is rather an „explanatory translation“ and not a „literally translation“. Robertson wrote:
And Herodias set herself against him (η δε ηρωιδιας ενειχεν αυτωι — Hē de Hērōidias eneichen autōi). Dative of disadvantage. Literally, had it in for him. This is modern slang, but is in exact accord with this piece of vernacular Koiné. No object of ειχεν — eichen is expressed, though οργην — orgēn or χολον — cholon may be implied. The tense is imperfect and aptly described the feelings of Herodias towards this upstart prophet of the wilderness who had dared to denounce her private relations with Herod Antipas. Gould suggests that she “kept her eye on him” or kept up her hostility towards him. She never let up, but bided her time which, she felt sure, would come. See the same idiom in Genesis 49:23.
5) My questions are:

- What is the best precise meaning and literal sense of the word “ἐνεῖχεν”, if nothing is implied? (If I understand correctly, then the word express an inner attitude and not an external action.)

- Does the word express a negative feeling (grudge, anger, hate - not mentioned in Mark 6:19) or rather an active/reactive mindset (to be fixated on, to be out to get)?

- Is it possible that the word is in any sense related to Mark 6:18 ?
Οὐκ ἔξεστίν σοι ἔχειν τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ σου.
Not it is lawful for you to have the wife of the brother of you.
ficino
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Re: translation problems

Post by ficino »

Hi, KK, you may have seen in LSJ the first entry on this verb is in the idiom χόλον ἐνέχειν τινί, "to harbour/nurse a grudge against someone." They cite Herodotus for this. χόλος literally means "bile," i.e. the digestive juice, but usually it is used for anger or wrath.

Later in the same entry, though, LSJ cite this verse from Mark as an instance of the meaning "to be urgent against" (III.2), and they also give your Genesis example. I don't know what "be urgent against" means in today's English, but I guess it means something like "press upon, harass." They give as a parallel Luke 11:53, which says that the scribes and Pharisees began to ἐνέχειν and interrogate him, where I suppose "harass" or "hassle" or "give a hard time to" would work as a translation.

For what it's worth, the Vulgate translates this phrase of Mark 6:19 as "insidiabatur illi," i.e. "was lying in wait for, trying to lay a trap for."

I think your "be out to get" is a good translation.
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Re: translation problems

Post by Charles Wilson »

Paul Younan's Aramaic has "...Herodia was A THREAT to him..."

CW
robert j
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Re: translation problems --- Jesus is Accursed

Post by robert j »

moved to a new thread --- robert j
Last edited by robert j on Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: translation problems

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

ficino wrote:Hi, KK, you may have seen in LSJ the first entry on this verb is in the idiom χόλον ἐνέχειν τινί, "to harbour/nurse a grudge against someone." They cite Herodotus for this. χόλος literally means "bile," i.e. the digestive juice, but usually it is used for anger or wrath.

Later in the same entry, though, LSJ cite this verse from Mark as an instance of the meaning "to be urgent against" (III.2), and they also give your Genesis example. I don't know what "be urgent against" means in today's English, but I guess it means something like "press upon, harass." They give as a parallel Luke 11:53, which says that the scribes and Pharisees began to ἐνέχειν and interrogate him, where I suppose "harass" or "hassle" or "give a hard time to" would work as a translation.

For what it's worth, the Vulgate translates this phrase of Mark 6:19 as "insidiabatur illi," i.e. "was lying in wait for, trying to lay a trap for."

I think your "be out to get" is a good translation.
Many thanks! It's great that you're here
Bertie
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Re: translation problems

Post by Bertie »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: - What is the best precise meaning and literal sense of the word “ἐνεῖχεν”, if nothing is implied? (If I understand correctly, then the word express an inner attitude and not an external action.)
she was holding within (herself)

That base meaning would usually require a direct object to make sense (unless apparent from the context); however, as the resources you've found indicate, what we are dealing with here seems either to be an idiom where the direct object (something meaning "wrath" or "hatred" as was apparently explicit in Herodotus) was elided or else an alternative definition (perhaps ultimately deriving from the aforementioned idiom) where the verb is intransitive (no direct object) and means something like "angry (at)" or "oppress". It is not entirely clear from the sources you cited whether there are actually Koine Greek examples beyond the LXX and NT that would help decide among these options.
- Does the word express a negative feeling (grudge, anger, hate - not mentioned in Mark 6:19) or rather an active/reactive mindset (to be fixated on, to be out to get)?
The Genesis example seems pretty "active" to me; the archers (literally "lords/masters of the arrows", apparently an extremely literal translation of a Hebrew idiom) are "oppressing" or "persecuting" or "causing distress" to the man (that is, because they are shooting at him, literally or figuratively). On the other hand, for Luke 11:53 I kind of like the translations that go with an internal mindset (note that in Luke there is not even a dative case indirect object for ἐνέχειν; that could be because Jesus is meant but unstated, or it could be because the emphasis is meant to be on the Scribes and Pharisees getting angry and not until the next infinitive in sequence do we learn what they actually start doing to Jesus).

Oh yes, one more note on the Mark verse — it seems to me that the very next verse Mark 6:20 restricts the level of "activity" meant by ἐνεῖχεν; Herod isn't going to let Herodias actually do very much to John.
- Is it possible that the word is in any sense related to Mark 6:18 ?
Οὐκ ἔξεστίν σοι ἔχειν τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ σου.
Not it is lawful for you to have the wife of the brother of you.
It is ἐνέχω without the ἐν, but I don't think the meanings/idioms are similar. One of the common idioms for ἔχω is "to be married to" (literally, to have as a wife/husband), and I think that's all that is meant here.
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Re: translation problems

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Very, very helpful. Thank you so much, Bertie
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Re: translation problems

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:An interesting idea! For now, I've stickied it!
Thanks.

Of course ;) , I currently have a problem. It´s a word in Mark 6:19

δὲἩρῳδιὰςἐνεῖχεναὐτῷκαὶἤθελεναὐτὸνἀποκτεῖναικαὶοὐκἠδύνατο
But <->theHerodias...himandwishedhimto killandnotwas able

1) If I understand correctly, then „ἐνεῖχεν” is a compound word of “ἐν” an “έχω“ and means literally in the first sense “have-within” (For example in Mark 9:50 “ἔχετε ἐν ἑαυτοῖς ἅλα” means “have in yourselves salt”) The word “ἐνεῖχεν” is Active Imperfect Indicative.

2) The most comparable case I've found is LXX-Gen 49,23: “εἰς ὃν διαβουλευόμενοι ἐλοιδόρουν, καὶ ἐνεῖχον αὐτῷ κύριοι τοξευμάτων” (usual translation: Against whom men taking evil counsel reproached [him], and the archers pressed hard upon him.) But that doesn't help.

3) I think the best overview with the most explanatory notes about “ἐνεῖχεν” is studylight.org and also perseus

4) It seems to me that the usual translation „had a grudge against him“ is rather an „explanatory translation“ and not a „literally translation“. Robertson wrote:
And Herodias set herself against him (η δε ηρωιδιας ενειχεν αυτωι — Hē de Hērōidias eneichen autōi). Dative of disadvantage. Literally, had it in for him. This is modern slang, but is in exact accord with this piece of vernacular Koiné. No object of ειχεν — eichen is expressed, though οργην — orgēn or χολον — cholon may be implied. The tense is imperfect and aptly described the feelings of Herodias towards this upstart prophet of the wilderness who had dared to denounce her private relations with Herod Antipas. Gould suggests that she “kept her eye on him” or kept up her hostility towards him. She never let up, but bided her time which, she felt sure, would come. See the same idiom in Genesis 49:23.
5) My questions are:

- What is the best precise meaning and literal sense of the word “ἐνεῖχεν”, if nothing is implied? (If I understand correctly, then the word express an inner attitude and not an external action.)

- Does the word express a negative feeling (grudge, anger, hate - not mentioned in Mark 6:19) or rather an active/reactive mindset (to be fixated on, to be out to get)?

- Is it possible that the word is in any sense related to Mark 6:18 ?
Οὐκ ἔξεστίν σοι ἔχειν τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ σου.
Not it is lawful for you to have the wife of the brother of you.
JW:
Oh Fraulein, don't you know by now that the precise meaning of words to an artist like "Mark" is, in the words of Bill Murray in the classic Holy Ghost Busters "More of a guideline than a rule". When betting on Women's Tennis I always bet against the heterosexual and likewise when looking for a Markan source I always check Paul. Galatians 5 has the offending word and parallels that are wunderbar. And in addition to not underestimating the power of The Force, do not underestimate the power of alliteration to a Word Master (so to speak) like "Mark" (eneichen autō kai ēthelen auton apokteinai kai). Ess ess mein keindt.


Josef

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