Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

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Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by Peter Kirby »

"Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung"

This article from Udo Schnelle, based on a lecture, is making some waves.

Too bad the bulk of it is behind a paywall.

http://concordiatheology.org/2014/09/wh ... -meetings/
This year the Presidential Address by Prof. Udo Schnelle of Halle, Germany, was outstanding. “Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung” put paid to the notion that early Christians were essentially a bunch of ignorant rubes, by detailing the insight and ability (if not formal training) recipients of Paul’s letters would have had to possess to understand his argumentation and to receive the impact of his rhetoric.
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blog ... early.html
"Early Christianity and Culture"
"Culture" is not perhaps the best word, but it’ll do for the moment. Udo Schnelle’s SNTS presidential address from last year has been published: U. Schnelle, ‘Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung’ NTS 61 (2015), 113-143.

The abstract shows how interesting (and controversial) this is:
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/di ... mpaign=NTS
Abstract
Early Christianity is often regarded as an entirely lower-class phenomenon, and thus characterised by a low educational and cultural level. This view is false for several reasons.

(1) When dealing with the ancient world, inferences cannot be made from the social class to which one belongs to one's educational and cultural level.

(2) We may confidently state that in the early Christian urban congregations more than 50 per cent of the members could read and write at an acceptable level.

(3) Socialisation within the early congregations occurred mainly through education and literature. No religious figure before (or after) Jesus Christ became so quickly and comprehensively the subject of written texts!

(4) The early Christians emerged as a creative and thoughtful literary movement. They read the Old Testament in a new context, they created new literary genres (gospels) and reformed existing genres (the Pauline letters, miracle stories, parables).

(5) From the very beginning, the amazing literary production of early Christianity was based on a historic strategy that both made history and wrote history.

(6) Moreover, early Christians were largely bilingual, and able to accept sophisticated texts, read them with understanding, and pass them along to others.

(7) Even in its early stages, those who joined the new Christian movement entered an educated world of language and thought.

(8) We should thus presuppose a relatively high intellectual level in the early Christian congregations, for a comparison with Greco-Roman religion, local cults, the mystery religions, and the Caesar cult indicates that early Christianity was a religion with a very high literary production that included critical reflection and refraction.
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by DCHindley »

Peter,

I get an uneasy feeling when I hear the name Paul connected with the art of Rhetoric.

Sometimes I think that the relative impossibility of understanding even his "authentic" letters makes some folks get really really creative with what constitutes "plausible".

Of COURSE Paul absolutely MUST make perfect sense! The only alternatives are that Paul is a rhetorical genius, or ... uh ... bi-polar (in my day we called it schizophrenia or dissociative disorder, so my apologies to the bipolar members for this sweeping generality).

I do not think he was bi-polar, I just think things he did write were later used for reasons he never intended. That's the third possibility we all prefer not to think about. "Whaaat!? Paul wasn't a 'Christian' (or, if you prefer, a 'Christian myth')!! Poppycock! Balderdash! You Cad ... you Bounder!"

Golly ... :scratch: <as I eye the door and prepare to grab stakes and ... bound>

DCH
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by Peter Kirby »

DCHindley wrote:Peter,

I get an uneasy feeling when I hear the name Paul connected with the art of Rhetoric.

Sometimes I think that the relative impossibility of understanding even his "authentic" letters makes some folks get really really creative with what constitutes "plausible".

Of COURSE Paul absolutely MUST make perfect sense! The only alternatives are that Paul is a rhetorical genius, or ... uh ... bi-polar (in my day we called it schizophrenia or dissociative disorder, so my apologies to the bipolar members for this sweeping generality).

I do not think he was bi-polar, I just think things he did write were later used for reasons he never intended. That's the third possibility we all prefer not to think about. "Whaaat!? Paul wasn't a 'Christian' (or, if you prefer, a 'Christian myth')!! Poppycock! Balderdash! You Cad ... you Bounder!"

Golly ... :scratch: <as I eye the door and prepare to grab stakes and ... bound>

DCH
So, what was Paul, then?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by Peter Kirby »

Another comment:

http://anebooks.blogspot.com/2015/02/wow-just-wow.html
Wow! I just saw an abstract of an article by Udo Schnelle about early Christianity, with thanks to Evangelical Textual Criticism for the link. Unfortunately it is behind a pay wall so I can't get the full details, but it is sure to stir up a controversy.
Here's the extract. The article is entitled Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung (roughly translated Early Christianity and Culture):
<idle musing>
Wow! Fifty percent literacy?! Most scholars think that literacy was under 10%, and closer to 2–3% (at best) if you want anything more than a bare functional literacy the equivalent of being able to read street signs.
I can't wait to see the responses. And maybe even grab the article itself, although my German is so bad right now that it would be a painful process to read it...
</idle musing>
By way of clarification (and perhaps this is already understood), I should say that Udo Schnelle is not arguing for 50% literacy of the ancient world at large. Rather he appears to be arguing that the earliest Christians were an exceptional, not average, bunch when it comes to reading and writing.
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Peter Kirby wrote:
DCHindley wrote:Peter,

I get an uneasy feeling when I hear the name Paul connected with the art of Rhetoric.

Sometimes I think that the relative impossibility of understanding even his "authentic" letters makes some folks get really really creative with what constitutes "plausible".

Of COURSE Paul absolutely MUST make perfect sense! The only alternatives are that Paul is a rhetorical genius, or ... uh ... bi-polar (in my day we called it schizophrenia or dissociative disorder, so my apologies to the bipolar members for this sweeping generality).

I do not think he was bi-polar, I just think things he did write were later used for reasons he never intended. That's the third possibility we all prefer not to think about. "Whaaat!? Paul wasn't a 'Christian' (or, if you prefer, a 'Christian myth')!! Poppycock! Balderdash! You Cad ... you Bounder!"

Golly ... :scratch: <as I eye the door and prepare to grab stakes and ... bound>

DCH
So, what was Paul, then?



A Review of Udo Schnelle and Francis Watson on Paul
David L. Balch

http://www.plts.edu/docs/dialog_paul.pdf

  • Udo Schnelle, an ordained Lutheran pastor and theologian who holds the Chair of New Testament in Halle/Wittenberg, might be considered successor to the Chair held by Martin Luther himself. Schnelle both accepts and modifies Schweitzer’s thesis:
    • The famous dictum of Albert Schweitzer sees the matter rightly: “The doctrine of righteousness by faith is therefore a subsidiary crater, which was formed within the rim of the main crater—the mystical doctrine of redemption through the being-in-Christ.” Both Wrede and Schweitzer, however, unjustly relate these appropriate observations on the origin of the exclusive Pauline doctrine of justification to evaluations of its importance. Although it did indeed originate in the disputes with Judaism and Jewish Christianity, its theological capacity cannot be restricted to this dispute.


LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by maryhelena »

Peter Kirby wrote:Another comment:

http://anebooks.blogspot.com/2015/02/wow-just-wow.html
Wow! I just saw an abstract of an article by Udo Schnelle about early Christianity, with thanks to Evangelical Textual Criticism for the link. Unfortunately it is behind a pay wall so I can't get the full details, but it is sure to stir up a controversy.
Here's the extract. The article is entitled Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung (roughly translated Early Christianity and Culture):
<idle musing>
Wow! Fifty percent literacy?! Most scholars think that literacy was under 10%, and closer to 2–3% (at best) if you want anything more than a bare functional literacy the equivalent of being able to read street signs.
I can't wait to see the responses. And maybe even grab the article itself, although my German is so bad right now that it would be a painful process to read it...
</idle musing>
By way of clarification (and perhaps this is already understood), I should say that Udo Schnelle is not arguing for 50% literacy of the ancient world at large. Rather he appears to be arguing that the earliest Christians were an exceptional, not average, bunch when it comes to reading and writing.
I would think that once one drops the idea of Jesus as an itinerant carpenter figure i.e. drops the gospel story of such a figure as being historical - then it's pretty obvious that the NT writings were written by an educated elite intent upon complexity. Or as Thomas Brodie would have it - by a 'school'. While the Jesus story might appear to be simple it's construction indicates considerable intellectual achievement. The gospel story is top down not bottom up....
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by Clive »

The cult of the word was serious about reading and writing. Makes a lot of sense!
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by DCHindley »

Peter Kirby wrote:
DCHindley wrote:Peter,

I get an uneasy feeling when I hear the name Paul connected with the art of Rhetoric.
...
I do not think [Paul] was bi-polar, I just think things he did write were later used for reasons he never intended. ...
So, what was Paul, then?
IMHO, Paul was a retainer of the household of a Herodian prince, a household that spanned from Asia Minor to the lower areas of Syria. His job was to ensure that estates under the control of the household patron were properly provisioned and ready to accommodate any guests the prince may send their way.

Of the household staff of an estate, the housekeepers, cooks, overseers, and groundskeepers were probably almost all slaves. The farmers were more than likely tenant farmers, that is, peasants. Their status may be slave or free.

Someone like Paul, who was a business agent, could have been either a high status slave or a free retainer. Generally, these type of retainers would be Freedmen, that is slaves who had been manumitted and granted freedom. Freedmen, however, were expected to maintain their relationships with the patron's family, and continue to perform functions for that family. There are inscriptions that indicate that some of these manumitted slaves had at some point formally adopted the religion of their masters, Judaism, probably as a heartfelt token of respect to their master.

Of the most highly respected slaves of a Roman Citizen of higher rank, not run of the mill slaves, the ones who had most skillfully performed important functions within household system were destined to continue to do so, now with freedom and rank. He received the right of full Roman citizenship, which he could also bestow to his children. The children probably received a lower form of Roman citizenship, and would have to find their own way in the household system of positions and ranks.

The more common form of manumission bestowed the right to Roman citizenship to the freed slave only, but not to his children. This latter form of manumission is bestowed to slaves that had distinguished themselves in a lower level in the household hierarchy. "A toast," says the master as he raises his cup, "to the best damn cupbearer ever!" The staff responds with a hearty "HORRAHH!" "That son of a gun has done it!" muses one slave among the younger staff. "If he can do it, damn if I can't too."

How does this relate to the business agent Paul, a retainer within a Herodian prince's household? I think he is the son of a Freedman, one who had willfully adopted the Judean form of worship and social customs. This man managed to retire to a house in Jerusalem. Paul, I think, had entered the ranks of the household as a free retainer, and had risen to the level of a business agent. He also had developed some skills at canvas working, maybe from his earlier days in the lower levels of the household hierarchy, which he still performed as required.

Maybe he was just a damn good artisan canvas worker retainer, one who was sent to do this or that job. "Paul! I need you to install new canvas awnings at my estate near Damascus." "Paul! I need you to re-outfit the sails on some of my merchant ships over at the harbor by my estate in Tarsus, Cilicia." "Yes SIR!" replied Paul, as he prepares to do his job.

What I think, and I am just guessing, is that in his youth in Jerusalem he had zealously practiced his father's adopted religion. He became aware that some gentile god-fearers were asking for incorporation within the people of Israel without having to fully convert to Judeanism (circumcision, diet and adherence to tenets of Judean law). Lest just say that Paul was dead set against it at first, seeking to make a name for himself as a rabble rouser. But as he entered into the ranks of the household system of retainers of his patron, he changed his tune.

This is how he developed his idea that the faith of Abra'm in the promise God had made to him about having many sons, which had justified him before God even before he circumcised himself and his household, would be enough to justify any God-fearing gentile before God, without any requirement to adopt circumcision or the law of Moses, which was not even around in Abraham's time. He convinced himself that God had even selected him before he was born to spread around this good news. Everywhere he went in the performance of his duties for his patron, he talked about the idea, in the synagogues mainly.

Let's just also say that there were many Judeans, probably both naturally born and those who were proselytes or sons of proselytes, who were just as steadfastly against the idea, just as Paul had once felt. These sought to throw roadblocks in his path and harass those gentile God-fearers who were responding to Paul's good-news. However, Paul was a tough guy, and shrugged off their efforts, sometimes just barely escaping with his life. He eventually came up with the idea of collecting freewill offerings for the poor of Jerusalem as a bona-fide "apostle" (financial representative duly appointed by a priestly panel associated with the Temple hierarchy in Jerusalem). If he could just get these representatives to accept his friend's goodwill offerings as if they came from natural born Judeans, he would have finally achieved his life goal!

If Acts can be relied upon, when he finally got the funds back to Jerusalem where he was asked to use them to defray the costs of those who had traveled to Jerusalem to fulfill Nazirite vows, a riot developed when some of those who opposed his ideas found out he was there and what he was there to do. This got him arrested and he decided he'd trump the opposition and requested an audience with the emperor himself, where he would pitch the idea.

Maybe he was delusional, maybe not, but things apparently did not go well for him in Rome. He might have been assassinated or died of natural causes while awaiting his audience, or was ruled against by the emperor. If the latter, and he was lucky, he may have been exiled to far away Spain. Worse case would be execution as an example to others.

Anyways, back to the OP, and it is supposed that Paul was speaking only to the household slaves and other retainers (about 4% of the population of that age) of his patron (from the top 1% of that age), and not to the tenant farmers (about 95% of that age), he was directing his efforts to folks who were surely more educated than tenant farmers (near 100% illiterate) on the average, but not as educated as the top elite classes (near 100% literate). You don't need to be highly educated to perform business functions, or even manage a villa, beyond math and how to word contracts or simple reports to or highly stylized communications with superiors, yet the household favorites tended to receive formal education along with their masters' own children, so perhaps most were "functionally illiterate" (you can assume they can count and read Greek but probably not compose any prose or poetry) with a subset that was literate (read and understand Homer etc and compose at least passable classical Greek prose/poetry, but certainly be fluent in koine = common Greek).

However, I doubt that most of these could employ fancy schmancy rhetorical form, and even of those they would employ Greek style rhetoric, not Roman, which was much more complex and did not even have Greek equivalents. To make sense of the present form of the letters, critics have to assume that Paul was using extreme rhetorical tactics used by some Romans in law cases or deliberative discussions, in his Greek compositions. However, Paul was likely living in an environment with exposure primarily to Greek, and with little if any exposure to Latin, and I am not aware that anybody, through history, has ever so much as expressed the opinion that Paul was a rhetorical genius.

DCH :goodmorning:
Last edited by DCHindley on Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by outhouse »

DCHindley wrote:Peter,

I get an uneasy feeling when I hear the name Paul connected with the art of Rhetoric.


DCH

DCH in my class at Harvard, they spent a day on Pauls rhetoric prose.

There is no debate that is how he was trained to write.

To what levels did his community pervert their artistic freedom, however is on a sentence by sentence basis.
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by outhouse »

DCHindley wrote: To make sense of the present form of the letters, critics have to assume that Paul was using extreme rhetorical tactics used by some Romans in law cases or deliberative discussions, in his Greek compositions. However, Paul was likely living in an environment with exposure primarily to Greek, and with little if any exposure to Latin, and I am not aware that anybody, through history, has ever so much as expressed the opinion that Paul was a rhetorical genius.


DCH

Not just critics though.


I was taught that Aristotle teachings were his primary rhetorical methodology.



Example, his claim of Pharisee, are possibly steeped in rhetoric.
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