in defence of astrotheology

[Leucius Charinus]

Astrotheology is simplistic

Cyclic simplicity has appeal. As above, so below.

The non canonical texts exhibit more astrotheology than the canonical texts. Why? That's a problem to be solved.



LC

[Bertie]

The discussion then moves to did anyone apart from some specific religios without any real experience actually use flat earth ideas?

One of the religions that incorporated flat earth ideas was Judaism, explicitly so in the Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch), a source that certainly predates Christianity and is a demonstrable influence on the New Testament. In the Book of the Watchers, Enoch visits the ends of the earth in the east where the heaven meets the ground and sees the portals where the stars exit prior to their journey across the sky and visits other ends of the earth and sees portals whence come the weather and the winds and such. The Old Testament is less explicit, but usually people say it adheres to a flat earth model, too.

I don't see that the writers of the New Testament were particularly interested in this subject, though.

[Clive]

Who actually bothered about the book of watchers, apart from specific religios without any real experience? When is it thought to have been written?

I propose that anyone living and working by or near the sea would get this is a round planet in their bones. They might not say it.

[Clive]

modern scholars estimate the older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) to date from about 300 BC,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

Euclid (/ˈjuːklɪd/; Greek: Εὐκλείδης Eukleidēs; fl. 300 BC), sometimes called Euclid of Alexandria to distinguish him from Euclid of Megara, was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "Father of Geometry". He was active in Alexandria during the reign of Ptolemy I (323–283 BC). His Elements is one of the most influential works in the history of mathematics, serving as the main textbook for teaching mathematics (especially geometry) from the time of its publication until the late 19th or early 20th century.[1][2][3] In the Elements, Euclid deduced the principles of what is now called Euclidean geometry from a small set of axioms. Euclid also wrote works on perspective, conic sections, spherical geometry, number theory and rigor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid

[neilgodfrey]

Allow me to cite a conflicting source. Former Professor of Psychology at the University of Sydney in Australia, William O’Neil, was also a historian of astronomy. In his magnificent book Early Astronomy from Babylonia to Copernicus, O’Neil makes the following claim, which I am typing up because I would like to know if his allegations about Tertullian, Lactanius and Kosmas are true:

“The early Christian Fathers contributed to the decline of the Hellenistic astronomy and other branches of science in both the west and the east of the empire. After Constantine had adopted Christianity as the official religion (early fourth Century) not only was paganism discouraged, if not suppressed, as a religion, but also pagans had obstacles placed in their way in teaching or otherwise promulgating views on secular matters where these views seemed to be in conflict with the Scriptures. Extreme examples of the rejection of Hellenistic astronomy were provided by Tertullian (early third century), by Lactanius (early fourth century) and by Kosmas (sixth century). Without differentiating amongst the details of their several views it may be said that they rejected the Hellenistic notion of the sphericity of the earth and of the universe in favour of a layered, flat, square scheme as suggested in Genesis. . . .”

O’Neil is incorrect in his questioning whether paganism was suppressed (it was, violently). But it is a shame he does not cite his sources more specifically than the names of the three fools.

. . .

Christine Garwood in her book "Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea" supports O'Neil's assertion about Lactantius and Cosmas but makes no mention of Tertullian. Garwood lists other names, some obscure, of the era who were "atypical" in their support for biblical literalism with respect to the shape of the earth so it would be surprising if she omitted Tertullian had she been aware that he also held a flat earth view.

The quote comes from page 101 of O'Neil's book. There is no citation to support his claim about Tertullian.

O'Neil is also writing casually (i.e. incorrectly) when he says Constantine made Christianity the "official religion" of the Roman empire.

[neilgodfrey]

which I am typing up because I would like to know if his allegations about Tertullian, Lactanius and Kosmas are true:

I covered Tertullian in the above post. As for Firmianus Lactantius (c. 245–325) Garwood writes:

Raised in Africa as a pagan (non-Judeo-Christian) in the mid-third century , St Lactantius was a rhetorician who converted to Christianity and wrote a number of books supporting the truth of his new-found faith. An eloquent writer, if incredibly biased, he attacked pagan (Greco-Roman) philosophy on manifold points, including its teaching that the earth was a globe. In the third book of his Divine Institutions (c. 302– 11), ‘On the False Wisdom of the Philosophers’, Lactantius ridiculed the notion of a sphere where people on the other side lived with their feet above their heads, where rain, snow and hail fell upwards, where trees and crops grew upside-down and the sky was lower than the ground. The ancient wonder of the hanging gardens of Babylon dwindles into nothing , he commented sarcastically, in comparison to the fields, seas, towns and mountains that the pagan philosophers believed to be hanging from the earth without support. The rotundity of the earth was a ‘marvellous fiction’, a lie spread by pagans for sinister motives or the ‘sake of a jest’, and as the Bible was somewhat unclear about the shape of the earth, he concluded that the subject was irrelevant anyway. Albeit strongly argued, Lactantius’s views also lacked support in any sort of sense: he was denounced by some as heretical after his death, and his obscure views had little impact on contemporary thought about the shape of the earth.

Garwood, Christine (2007-06-01). Flat Earth (Kindle Locations 252-263). Pan Macmillan UK. Kindle Edition.

And on Cosmas Indicopleustes:

Nevertheless, in the sixth century Lactantius was joined by Byzantine merchant and Christian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes. An obscure figure, it is said that he travelled widely – possibly to Abyssinia, Ceylon, western India and more – and earned the name ‘Indicopleustes’, the Indian traveller, as a consequence of his experiences. Around 500 he returned to his birthplace, Alexandria, and later entered a monastery on the peninsula of Sinai where he wrote his geographical and cosmological masterpiece Christian Topography (c. 548). A comprehensive description of the universe based on a literal interpretation of the Bible, the twelve books denounced pagan teaching and Christians who interpreted the scriptures allegorically to hold that the earth was a globe. Cosmas was certain that the Bible taught that it was a disc or trapezium-shaped flat surface like the Tabernacle of the Old Testament, with heaven as a chest – or altar-shaped structure above. However, there are only a few reasonably full manuscripts of Cosmas’s work in existence from the period in which he lived, and as they were not translated from Greek into Latin until centuries later it is safe to conclude that, like Lactantius’s, his radical flat -earth views had no impact in the Latin-speaking West.

Garwood, Christine (2007-06-01). Flat Earth (Kindle Locations 263-272). Pan Macmillan UK. Kindle Edition.

And on the place of these two figures [sans Tertullian!] in the history of thought about a flat earth Garwood writes:

Although very few writers of the patristic period ( c. first to eighth centuries ) argued in favour of a flat earth, Lactantius and Cosmas were held up as typical medieval thinkers by Victorian rationalist writers who, like radical philosophes, were set on sidelining religious belief as damaging to the progress of scientific truth. From the late nineteenth century, Lactantius and Cosmas were assigned leading parts in accounts alleging that educated medieval people believed the earth to be flat. These two obscure figures were ‘proof’ that the early Church had strangled scientific progress at a critical period, a crime that was only latterly being redressed.

Garwood, Christine (2007-06-01). Flat Earth (Kindle Locations 273-278). Pan Macmillan UK. Kindle Edition.

I think we can say from Garwood's discussion of the Victorian rationalists pointing to "these TWO" figures that Tertullian was not known to be among those who considered the earth to be flat.

[GakuseiDon]

Neil, thanks for the above info.

[MrMacSon]

The conflation of Sun and Son can be seen as well in the Christmas hymn "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing" where in the fifth stanza is the verse "Hail the Sun of righteousness! / Light and life to all he brings." Originally written in 1739 by Charles Wesley (the brother of John Wesley, founder of the Methodist church) as a Hymn for Christmas-Day, it was changed by George Whitefield to "Hail the Son of Righteousness!"

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/enc ... ictus.html

[Ulan]

Just to say something constructive: there were only two places in Greece where the sun god was worshiped, one of them being Corinth. Which also plays a major role in the fledgling Christian cult. I'm not aware of any connections though.

When was a sun-God worshipped in Corinth?

Where was the other place? When was a sun-God worshipped there?

Well, we can exclude Corinth, as that was a Roman city during Paul's time, a foundation of Julius Cesar. It's the old city, which had been destroyed a hundred years before that, which was supposed to have been founded by a son of Helios.

The other city was Rhodos. You know the Colossus, a statue of Helios, the sun. Also older than Christian times obviously.

[MrMacSon]

Tertuallian remarked that "pagans believed Christians to be sun worshippers"

Centuries later Augustine denounced "the heretical identification of Christ with Sol".

Acharya S Suns of God