The Best Case Against Jesus

[Bernard Muller]

In the same manner as Peter handled "The Best Case For Jesus", that is with reference to authors from antiquity and quotes from their writings, what are the best cases against the existence of somebody named Jesus (Greek for Aramaic Joshua), as a first century man credited to have started Christianity?
An example would be 1 John 4:2. Please elaborate on that one and come up with other ones.

Cordially, Bernard

[Peter Kirby]

Interesting idea.

BTW what is interesting about 1 John 4:2 ?

(Brought to you by Android while killing time in a Dodge... )

[Leucius Charinus]

IMHO the best case against (the canonical) Jesus are the truly weird stories about him and his twelve apostolic boneheads which are found in the non canonical texts. In most of the stories Jesus makes an appearance wearing fictional post resurrection clothing. The apostles - among other things - resurrect smoked fish, talk to the animals, travel hither and thither by a bright cloud, command bed bugs, cause pagan temples to be destroyed, and cast lots for the destiny to convert the nations to the "Nation of Christians".

The non canonical Jesus is a fictional entity in a fictional story - often a [Greek] romance story.

What did these authors think they were doing?

Were they making a case against (the canonical) Jesus?

I think they were.



LC

[Bernard Muller]

to Peter,
you asked:

BTW what is interesting about 1 John 4:2 ?

1 Jn 4:2 RSV "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,"

Cordially, Bernard

[andrewbos]

....

[maryhelena]

The best case against a historical Jesus is a case based on history i.e. putting history on the table, so to speak, allows for the gospel story to be set against history. Doing so brings into focus the historical elements that the gospel writers used in the creation of their story; a story that is a political allegory with a prophetic and theological/philosophical top dressing. The gospel figure of Jesus is thus a symbol of the Hasmonean/Jewish history that the gospel writers found to be relevant to their interpretation of the OT. A history that was the spark plug that ignited the developing of a new theological philosophy.

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Re-posting from earlier threads:

Richard Carrier: OTHJ
If 'Jesus Christ' began as a celestial deity' is false, it could still be that he began as a political fiction, for example (as some scholars have indeed argued - the best examples being R.G. Price and Gary Courtney). But as will become clear in following chapters....such a premise has a much lower prior probability (and this is already at a huge disadvantage over Premise 1 even before we start examining the evidence) and a very low consequent probability (though it suits the Gospels well, it just isn't possible to explain the evidence of the Epistles this way, and the origin of Christianity itself becomes very hard to explain.) Although I leave open the possibility it may yet be vindicated, I'm sure it very unlikely to be, and accordingly I will assume it's prior probability is too small even to show up in our maths. This decision can be reversed only by a sound and valid demonstration that we must assign it a higher prior or consequent, but I leave to anyone who thinks it's possible. Page 53/54

"....the while point of the book is that the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the Zeitgeist.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... aesars.htm

my formatting in the above quotes.

OK - here is my chart. I did post it a few years ago on FRDB but no longer able to give a link to that forum. (it's more or less the same chart - with a few nice colours now....)
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Historical artefacts, such as coins, are testimony to the fact that certain individuals were historical figures. That is the bare bones of historical evidence. However, history requires a story; a narrative, to joins up the facts and present a meaningful picture. The picture could be cloudy and unclear or it could be a reasonable explanation of what happened. In the chart that follows, Josephus is the primary source for building that historical narrative. Did Josephus himself, writing after the events, have accurate material to work with? Or is Josephus creating his own narrative - and without a secondary source there is no way to be sure. All one can do is work with his material and question his story when it presents problems.

The chart below has set out Josephan Hasmonean history for Antigonus. It also presents the Josephan history for Philip the Tetrarch. Philo’s story about the mocking of Carabbas and Agrippa I is also used. This chart is the historical backdrop that allows the gospel literary, mythological JC, a veneer of historicity, an ability to reflect historical events. It is this reflection, this veneer of historicity, that has allowed the assumption that the gospel JC figure is a historical figure. That assumption, when considered in the light of history, the Hasmonean and Herodian coins, and that history’s narrative as set down by Josephus and Philo, is unfounded.

HISTORY and Coins	Philo (died about 50 c.e.) Flaccus	JOSEPHUS: War (about 75 c.e.)Antiquities:(about 94 c.e.)	The composite gospel Jesus figure based upon the historical figures of the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus; Philip the Tetrarch and Agrippa I.
King Antigonus Mattathias II High Priest of the Jews: 4 b.c.e. – 37 b.c.e. Hasmonean Bilingual Coins, Hebrew and Greek.		Antigonus enters Jerusalem: Antigonus himself also bit off Hyrcanus's ears with his own teeth, as he fell down upon his knees to him, that so he might never be able upon any mutation of affairs to take the high priesthood again, for the high priests that officiated were to be complete, and without blemish. War: Book 1.ch.13 (40 b.c.)........................Antony came in, and told them that it was for their advantage in the Parthian war that Herod should be king; so they all gave their votes for it. War: Book 1.ch.14 (40 b.c.)	John 18.10; Mark 14.47; Matthew 26.51; Luke 22.50. John and Luke specifying right ear, Mark and Matthew have 'ear'. gJohn stating that Peter cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant.
		Now as winter was going off, Herod marched to Jerusalem, and brought his army to the wall of it; this was the third year since he had been made king at Rome; War: Book 1. ch.17 (37 b.c.).. Herod on his own account, in order to take the government from Antigonus, who was declared an enemy at Rome, and that he might himself be king, according to the decree of the Senate. Antiquities Book 14 ch.16.	gJohn indicates a three year ministry for JC.
Cassius Dio: Antigonus. These people Antony entrusted to one Herod to govern, and Antigonus he bound to a cross and flogged,—treatment accorded to no other king by the Romans,—and subsequently slew him. Roman History, Book xlix, c.22.		Then it was that Antigonus, without any regard to his former or to his present fortune, came down from the citadel, and fell at Sosius's feet, who without pitying him at all, upon the change of his condition, laughed at him beyond measure, and called him Antigona. Yet did he not treat him like a woman, or let him go free, but put him into bonds, and kept him in custody.... Sosius ......went away from Jerusalem, leading Antigonus away in bonds to Antony; then did the axe bring him to his end..War: Book 1.ch.18. ..Antigonus, without regard to either his past or present circumstances, came down from the citadel, and fell down at the feet of Sosius, who took no pity of him, in the change of his fortune, but insulted him beyond measure, and called him Antigone [i.e. a woman, and not a man;] yet did he not treat him as if he were a woman, by letting him go at liberty, but put him into bonds, and kept him in close custody.......	The soldiers mock Jesus: Mark 15.16-20; Matthew 27:27-31.Jesus flogged: John 19:1; Mark 15:15; Matthew 27:26. JC crucified. Trilingual sign over cross: Aramaic, Latin and Greek. gJohn 19.19-21. JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Other variations: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS; THE KING OF THE JEWS; THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
		...and then but Herod was afraid lest Antigonus should be kept in prison [only] by Antony, and that when he was carried to Rome by him, he might get his cause to be heard by the senate, and might demonstrate, as he was himself of the royal blood, and Herod but a private man, that therefore it belonged to his sons however to have the kingdom, on account of the family they were of, in case he had himself offended the Romans by what he had done. Out of Herod's fear of this it was that he, by giving Antony a great deal of money, endeavoured to persuade him to have Antigonus slain. Antiquities: Book 14 ch.16. (Slavonic Josephus has the teachers of the Law giving the money to Pilate...)	Judas betrays JC for 30 pieces of silver. Matthew 27.3.
		Now when Antony had received Antigonus as his captive, he determined to keep him against his triumph; but when he heard that the nation grew seditious, and that, out of their hatred to Herod, they continued to bear good-will to Antigonus, he resolved to behead him at Antioch, for otherwise the Jews could no way be brought to be quiet. (37 b.c.) Antiquities: Book 15 ch.1.	Acts: 11:16.The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Philip the Tetrarch: Herodian Coins. 4 b.c.e. – 34 c.e.		When Philip also had built Paneas, a city at the fountains of Jordan, he named it Caesarea. He also advanced the village Bethsaida, situate at the lake of Gennesareth, unto the dignity of a city, both by the number of inhabitants it contained, and its other grandeur, and called it by the name of Julias, Antiquities: Book 18 ch.2.	John 1:43-45. Philip, Andrew and Peter come from Bethsaida. Around the villages of Caesarea Phillipi JC asked the disciples who do people say he is. Peter says: "You are the Messiah". Mark 8:27-30; Matthew 16: 13-16.
		(about 34 c.e.) About this time it was that Philip, Herod's brother, departed this life, in the twentieth year of the reign of Tiberius, after he had been tetrarch of Trachonitis and Gaulanitis, and of the nation of the Bataneans also, thirty seven years. He had showed himself a person of moderation and quietness in the conduct of his life and government; he constantly lived in that country which was subject to him; he used to make his progress with a few chosen friends; his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgment, followed him in his progress; and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal set down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint: he there ordered the guilty that were convicted to be punished, and absolved those that had been accused unjustly. He died at Julias; and when he was carried to that monument which he had already erected for himself beforehand, he was buried with great pomp.His principality Tiberius took, (for he left no sons behind him,) and added it to the province of Syria, but gave order that the tributes which arose from it should be collected, and laid up in his tetrachy. Antiquities: Book 18 ch.4.	disciples/apostles: John 6:70; Mark 3:14; Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13. A rich man from Arimathea, Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. Matthew 27:57-59. Mark 15:43. Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. JC crucified during rule of Pilate - which ends in 36 c.e.
Agrippa I. (d.44 c.e.) Herodian Coins.	The mocking of Carabbas:... a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick ..., he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, ....Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians;..when Flaccus heard, or rather when he saw this, he would have done right if he had apprehended the maniac and put him in prison, that he might not give to those who reviled him any opportunity or excuse for insulting their superiors, and if he had chastised those who dressed him up for having dared both openly and disgustedly, both with words and actions, to insult a king.		The soldiers mock Jesus: Mark 15.16-20; Matthew 27:27-31. ..... The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers. They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him. And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him............Pilate released Barabbas.

While the chart has set down the historical backdrop in which to view the gospel JC figure, the chart is not the whole JC story. That story goes on to include OT midrash and mythological elements. However, without the historical backdrop, the gospel JC story would have had no legs upon which to run; no legs to allow it to be viewed as a plausible historical account. Crucified itinerate carpenters might well present historical possibilities and assumptions. However, belief in historical possibilities is something down the line, not something immediate. The immediate reality does not allow for possibilities - it allows only for what reality is. And that is historical reality not assumptions or possibilities.

The gospel JC story is not history; it is a mythologizing of history; an interpretation of history; salvation history. History viewed through a Jewish philosophical and a prophetic lens.
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While a lot of what Josephus wrote re Antigonus cannot be historically verified ie biting off the ear of his uncle Hyrcanus, his writing is what we have. All one can do is put the Josephan account/stories alongside the gospel account and acknowledge the reflection of the Josephan account/stories within the gospel story.

[Clive]

That the evolution of the Christ is predictable. Evolutionary ideas may be very valuable in this subject area.

Try playing what if with this, if things had been different, if the rich and powerful did not have so much current and historical power to create a hierarchical unequal world.

Would we have a more Hindu, Greek polytheist pattern with people worshipping the gods they wanted, instead of experiencing an arms race of one god, then god's son, then god with his prophet?

[Clive]

Look at the current patterns of christianities - Orthodox and Catholic clearly hierarchical, emperor christ stuff. Protestantism, the religions of the kings and princes, not emperors.

Quakers, ranters, levellers, pentecostal, Voodoo - people's religions.

The variations within each strand - Augustine and St Francis.

Why do we even assume a founder, however tangential?

[Clive]

I know evolutionary theory uses an idea of last common ancestor, but that is not the earliest, before this are a couple of billion years of horizontal gene transfer in the microcosmos - which is still the bedrock of life

[ficino]

This isn't a best case, just one text. In Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho (8.4), Trypho says, "But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing."

from the TLG:

Χριστὸς δέ, εἰ καὶ γεγένηται καὶ ἔστι που, ἄγνωστός ἐστι καὶ οὐδὲ αὐτός πω ἑαυτὸν ἐπίσταται οὐδὲ ἔχει δύναμίν τινα, μέχρις ἂν ἐλθὼν Ἠλίας χρίσῃ αὐτὸν καὶ φανερὸν πᾶσι ποιήσῃ· ὑμεῖς δέ, ματαίαν ἀκοὴν παραδεξάμενοι, Χριστὸν ἑαυτοῖς τινα ἀναπλάσσετε καὶ αὐτοῦ χάριν τὰ νῦν ἀσκόπως ἀπόλλυσθε.

Some people take this to attest to a belief among some 2nd-century Jews that Jesus (the guy worshiped by Christians) did not exist. I don't think the text says that explicitly. It may be clearer if we replace "Christ" in the English with "Messiah." Trypho seems to be saying that "maybe Moshiach has been born, maybe not - but he hasn't been shown to the world yet. But you mold up/fashion/invent some M. for yourselves..."

I think this text is consistent both with the thesis that some Jews didn't believe there was a real Jesus AND consistent with the thesis that some Jews accepted Jesus' historicity but denied that he was the Messiah. The literal sense of ἀναπλάσσετε is "make/fashion up a model or building." But there are a good number of cases where its metaphorical sense, "invent," is in play. The question here is whether T. thinks the Christians invent a guy and a story or invent a story about a real guy. That which Trypho says the Christians have accepted, sc. "a vain/empty rumor [i.e.: "something you heard, and there's nothing to it"]" could be either the guy + Messiaship part or only the Messiaship part. It's not clear to me which.

And Trypho is presumably Justin's fictional creation. But he presumably is given real Jewish beliefs to say in the dialogue.

Silence: it's interesting, though, that Justin's discourse to Trypho is mostly proofs from scripture. You might think he would tell Trypho of Jesus' amazing life, works, and teachings, but he doesn't do that. I consider this a problem, but I don't have a pick at this point among the fairly obvious, possible answers.