Simon, from Cyrene.

[maryhelena]

Does this qualify as an insurrection?

Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.261-262
There was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives. He was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to rule them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him.

Checking the dating...Pilate was long gone....

There came out of Egypt about this time to Jerusalem one that said he was a prophet,
and advised the multitude of the common people to go along with him to the Mount
of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of five
furlongs. He said further, that he would show them from hence how, at his
command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised them that he
would procure them an entrance into the city through those walls, when they were
fallen down. Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and
footmen from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with
him. He also slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. But the
Egyptian himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more (A.J. 20.169- 172).

Marcus Antonius Felix

Marcus Antonius Felix (Felix in Greek: ο Φηλιξ, born between 5/10-?) was the Roman procurator of Iudaea Province 52-58, in succession to Ventidius Cumanus.

[outhouse]

A disturbance is not an insurrection

Agreed. You are correct. Not only that, they were not just warriors who assembled in times of insurrection.



They were a known group who's existence at this time is not in dispute by anyone credible.

Did they disband after 30 years, when most Aramaic Galileans were known as Zealots.

Even one of Jesus followers is said to be a Zealot.

Josephus gives us plenty of evidence as well, as you have shown. They were the forth sect.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

On the other side of the coin, "if" we associated Jesus with the Zealot group, would that give credence to "not" a literary creation? I do, but Im still evenly divided.

I do not know these interpretations so far. Is Simon interpreted as a Zealot?

[outhouse]

On the other side of the coin, "if" we associated Jesus with the Zealot group, would that give credence to "not" a literary creation? I do, but Im still evenly divided.

I do not know these interpretations so far. Is Simon interpreted as a Zealot?

Yes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_the_Zealot


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean

Generically, a Galilean is an inhabitant of Galilee. Galileans (or Galilæans) were also the members of a fanatical sect (Zealots), followers of Judas of Galilee, who fiercely resented the taxation of the Romans, and whose violence contributed to induce the latter to vow the extermination of the whole race. The term was used by late antique pagan reactionaries such as the Emperor Julian as a contemptuous synonym for Christian.

[ericbwonder]

I haven't read this entire thread or Peter Kirby's thread. I only read his article.

But if it helps, in addition to the Rufus mentioned in Romans, what of the Jerusalem ossuary of 'Alexander, son of Simon'?

[maryhelena]

I haven't read this entire thread or Peter Kirby's thread. I only read his article.

But if it helps, in addition to the Rufus mentioned in Romans, what of the Jerusalem ossuary of 'Alexander, son of Simon'?

The interpretation of *qrnyt* as Cyrene is questionable.

Of course there is no proof, nor can there ever be, that what Sukenik and Avigad found in
Jerusalem so many years ago is the family tomb of the man who carried Jesus' cross. It
remains, at best, a good possibility. There is no denying, though, that what we have—etched
in the stone of a 2,000-year-old burial chest—is a thought-provoking, contemporaneous
parallel to the "Simon of Cyrene" and his son Alexander known from the gospel record.8

----
5. Interestingly, of the 15 inscriptions from this tomb, the inscription on this lid is the only
bilingual one (Greek and Hebrew), and the only one appearing neatly incised. It also
contains the puzzling term in Hebrew, qrnyt. Some scholars, assuming an engraver’s
error in the final letter, have tried—for obvious reasons—to render this word: “of
Cyrene.” However, Avigad did not share this conclusion and, as he wrote in 1962,
“finally had to leave the question unsolved.”

https://israelpalestineguide.files.word ... 0-edit.pdf

[Charles Wilson]

Generically, a Galilean is an inhabitant of Galilee. Galileans (or Galilæans) were also the members of a fanatical sect (Zealots), followers of Judas of Galilee, who fiercely resented the taxation of the Romans, and whose violence contributed to induce the latter to vow the extermination of the whole race. The term was used by late antique pagan reactionaries such as the Emperor Julian as a contemptuous synonym for Christian.

Attention Shoppers: I know that I am quoting outhouse and am inviting much Ridicule and Sophomoric Scorn, with apologies to Sophomores everywhere. I know, I know, I know...

With all due respect, outhouse, there is no "Generic Galilean" from which we may deduce the Subject of the NT. The woman recognizes Peter by his Galilean accent but the Tableau here isn't even known. What follows gives us a peek:

As stated often enough, there is a list of Mishmarot Courses in 1 Chronicles 24. What is little known is that there is a List of Priestly Courses that match the 1 Chronicles List with additional Information: Each Priestly Course has a Settlement matched to it. The Settlements start in the North at Meiron, which is matched with Jehoiarib. Then...:

From Leibner, Settlements..., referenced earlier:

"The reason that the remote settlement of Meiron heads the list, even before the city of Sepphoris, is related to the attribution to that settlement of the Course of Jehoiarib, to which the Hasmoneans belonged, and of R. Shim'on Bar Yohai, to whom tradition attributes anti-Roman sentiments...

"As we observed, the list cannot reflect Jewish settlement during the Byzantine period. During the Roman period these sites were indeed settled by Jews but there is nothing they have in common at this time. Surprisingly, however, settlements on the list for which we have historical or archaeological data indicate a clear common denominator - Jewish habitation from the Hasmonean period. As we showed in detail in chapter 6, intensive Jewish settlement in the area began with the Hasmonean conquest at the end of the second century BCE...A further wave of settlement, even larger, followed the Roman conquest...Indeed, all the settlements on the list for which we have firm data belong to the first group, while the settlements founded during the Roman period are clearly absent. It would thus appear that the list of the settlements reflects a historical memory of some sort concerning Jewish settlements of the Hasmonean period. The obvious absence of Tiberias from the list strengthens this view...

"We are apparently dealing with an attempt to create a narrative or a nostalgic look backward. In any event, in terms of the archaeological record, it appears that most of the list reflects a real situation and that it indeed expresses a historical memory that survived to the period of the lists consolidation...

"It appears that the list was intended to highlight the Hasmoneans' golden age or their conquest of the Galilee. In this connection, it is worth noting that most of the piyyutim dealing with the priestly courses deal with two occasions: the ninth of Ab and Hanukah - the holiday of the Hasmoneans (Yahalom, 1999, 113). This can be explained simply with the extensive interests in priestly and Temple themes.

"The extensive interest in priestly, Temple and Hasmonean motifs among the Jews of Galilee of Late Antiquity led to the creation of a thematic web. The web connected the priestly courses that served in the Temple during the glorious days of the Second Temple and the settlements established following the conquest by the dynasty of the Hasmonean Priests..."

QED.

If you don't believe me - or Maryhelena for that fact - then believe what is ON THE GROUND. It is there and it has been staring people in the face for centuries. It's not about a savior/god, it's about a rewrite of material that showed that the Promises of God were given to some other Group - The Hasmoneans. The Romans used the advantage of theft over honest toil.

CW

[outhouse]

With all due respect, outhouse, there is no "Generic Galilean" from which we may deduce the Subject of the NT.

CW

Ok so you put out a good honest and almost respectful response, so I give the same in return.

Jewish habitation from the Hasmonean period.

Not discounting that at all. As a matter of fact, thank you for the good information.

During the Roman period these sites were indeed settled by Jews

That statement really does not address the diversity. To me the term Jews is way to vague to be of any use.


We had Hellenistic Jews, Proselytes in Koine speaking cities like Sepphoris that lived in opulence.

We have Aramaic Jews living in filth in a rat hole like Nazareth would have been on its best day.


And we have the socioeconomic models so highly debated.

But we do have Zealots at the turn of the century responsible for the destruction of Sepphoris.

We have Zealots responsible for the fall of the temple 70CE ish

We have a description by Josephus labeling them as a 4rth sect of Jews, which we could label the poor oppressed Aramaic agrarian Jews in Galilee as fitting this description.

We also have descriptions of the Sicarii, a sub sect of Zealots.

there is no "Generic Galilean"

Agreed.


There is not enough information for too much detail. And we are not blind.

"We are apparently dealing with an attempt to create a narrative or a nostalgic look backward.

Are you saying there is no credible look at cultural and social anthropology from Aramaic Galileans, and Hellenistic Jews in Galilee?

[steve43]

Where do you find "Hellenistic" Jews in the Galilee?

The Greek-Syrians detested the Jews, and so Pompey established the Decapolitan cities around the Galilee to keep them from being under the yoke of the Jewish Theocracy.

There were all sorts of conflicts between the two groups that Josephus documents well.

Were there intermarriages? Of course, and Saul of Tarsus is an example of one such union. But he was raised Jewish.

No true Jew embraced the Hellenistic way of life or worshiped their gods.

[Peter Kirby]

I haven't read this entire thread or Peter Kirby's thread. I only read his article.

But if it helps, in addition to the Rufus mentioned in Romans, what of the Jerusalem ossuary of 'Alexander, son of Simon'?

Could be could be.

But it needs to be 'authenticated' somehow as the same person's box not just an old box with some very common names.