Nomina Sacra

[Stephan Huller]

... but not James. Anyone who would cite this clearly has no grasp of ancient languages

[Gorit Maqueda]

Hi, Stephan

I'm sure IC, IH, etc. stand for Jesus. I was just wondering when the whole name Iesous begins to appear in the surviving Greek NT manuscripts.

[Sheshbazzar]

My question is: which is our oldest Greek papyrus where Jesus is cited by its complete name instead of IS / IC / IY?

Not an easy question to answer because the oldest Christian Greek papyrus only exist in fragments.
The evidence seems to indicate that the transition from nomina sacrum to regular usage of a full spelling out of the name Ἰησοῦς began with the Christian Church Fathers 'Clement' of Rome, Justin the Martyr, and Ignatius of Antioch in their non-canonical writings. However no contemporary exemplars of their writings survive, and unfortunately recovered early fragments such as P.Oxy. 5129 are text that do not contain either nomina sacra or explicit name.
But as Christian custom was to follow and cite the LXX as their authoritative Scriptural text, the form Ἰησοῦς appearing there would be the likely name intended to be indicated by whatever of the various nomina sacra were employed to represent the name 'Jesus'.

[Leucius Charinus]

I was just wondering when the whole name Iesous begins to appear in the surviving Greek NT manuscripts.

Good question !!!!!!!!!!!!!! IDK the answer but I would like to know. I'd suspect it is quite late.

The term "CHRISTIAN" [χριστιανος] does not become explicit until Codex Alexandrinus which is dated by (a very unreliable "church organisation") tradition to the mid 5th century.

But as Christian custom was to follow and cite the LXX as their authoritative Scriptural text, the form Ἰησοῦς appearing there would be the likely name intended to be indicated by whatever of the various nomina sacra were employed to represent the name 'Jesus'.

Can you advise where the form Ἰησοῦς appears in the LXX, and what is its context? Is this related to the name of "Joshua" at all?

Thanks.



LC

[Clive]

Maybe "the Lord's brother" is very important, but for opposite reasons - Jesus is an imaginary brother of James, a riff on the Divine Man and of course another version of this, the horned god?

[perseusomega9]

or perhaps similar to:

The savior said, "Brother Thomas while you have time in the world, listen to me, and I will reveal to you the things you have pondered in your mind.

"Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself, and learn who you are, in what way you exist, and how you will come to be. Since you will be called my brother, it is not fitting that you be ignorant of yourself. And I know that you have understood, because you had already understood that I am the knowledge of the truth. So while you accompany me, although you are uncomprehending, you have (in fact) already come to know, and you will be called 'the one who knows himself'. For he who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of the all. So then, you, my brother Thomas, have beheld what is obscure to men, that is, what they ignorantly stumble against."

from Thomas the Contender

[Sheshbazzar]

Can you advise where the form Ἰησοῦς appears in the LXX, and what is its context? Is this related to the name of "Joshua" at all?

First appearance is at Numbers

13:16 ταῦτα τὰ ὀνόματα τῶν ἀνδρῶν οὓς ἀπέστειλεν Μωυσῆς κατασκέψασθαι τὴν γῆν καὶ ἐπωνόμασεν Μωυσῆς τὸν Αυση υἱὸν Ναυη Ἰησοῦν
Rendered in KJV Bible as 'Jehoshua'

In Exodus
17:10 καὶ ἐποίησεν Ἰησοῦς καθάπερ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Μωυσῆς καὶ ἐξελθὼν παρετάξατο τῷ Αμαληκ καὶ Μωυσῆς καὶ Ααρων καὶ Ωρ ἀνέβησαν ἐπὶ τὴν κορυφὴν τοῦ βουνοῦ
The spelling Ἰησοῦς is used.

And in Zechariah
3:3 καὶ Ἰησοῦς ἦν ἐνδεδυμένος ἱμάτια ῥυπαρὰ καὶ εἱστήκει πρὸ προσώπου τοῦ ἀγγέλου
(see Zech 6:12-13 with regards to this particular name) it also occurs in many other verses of the LXX texts.

This is the same name and spelling that occurs in the Greek text of;

Matthew 1:16 Ἰακὼβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσὴφ τὸν ἄνδρα Μαρίας ἐξ ἧς ἐγεννήθη Ἰησοῦς ὁ λεγόμενος Χριστός

In Matthew 1:1 βίβλος γενέσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ Δαυὶδ υἱοῦ Ἀβραάμ

Thus this name appears with three spellings; Ἰησοῦν then Ἰησοῦς and Ἰησοῦ

The reason for the differing spellings is that in the adaption from Hebrew to Greek, The Greek linguistic custom is to attach a terminal ν or ς to indicate masculine gender.
This practice may also be seen in Greek renderings of all the Hebrew prophets names, vis 'Isaiah' becomes 'Isaias', 'Jerimiah' becomes 'Jerimiahs' ect.

In sum, the name Ἰησοῦς and Ἰησοῦ traces directly back to the LXX Ἰησοῦν 'Jehoshua' which is a construct of the ancient (but not exclusively 'Hebrew') Name יה 'YAH' and שוע 'shua' to 'HELP' or 'Deliver' ('save', 'Savior') see Ex 15:2)

As 'YAH' is the verb form for 'self existent' The "I AM", Also used as a proper name for the 'Holy One' of Israel in Ex 15:2, 17:16, Psalm 68:4, 68:18, 77:11,89:8, 94:7, 12, 102:18 and many other verses of the Hebrew bible (usually obscured in translations by the LXX' substitution of 'Kurios')

As combined into one name, 'Yah hoshua' as by Moshe, and as in Matt 1:21 <sic> 'JESUS' ('IA-SU') the sense is of the name so rendered is '(I AM) self existent HELP' ("salvation").
...Even to the extreme extent that the very name in and of itself has the power to HELP and or 'save' (see Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Rom 10:13, John 1:12, 1 John 3:23, 5:13, Acts 4:12. and many others)

If you can understand this, you will comprehend that this as worded and promised, it applies to anyone at all; "whosoever", even to atheists.
This 'name' is the Bible's self-existing HELP,(assistance to comprehension) To "whosoever" will' ...avail theirselves.
Could be you.

One does not even need to believe in the literal existence of any god, God, deity, or even 'Yahweh' himself, to be 'helped' and assisted by recognition of, and fealty to the significance of THIS particular ancient name.
Mankind coming to understand and to comprehend the significance of this matter IS (present tense) the downfall of traditional (superficial) Christianity, and that entire city of "Babylon" religion which these men have constructed.

Did I ever tell you the story of the world's first and most famous atheist?
He was a Chaldean named Abram.

Sheshbazzar the (atheist) Hebrew

[Clive]

Is the name above all names and the games they played with numbers part of something else? Magical thinking about words, numbers and grammar? And over time these games had people attached to what were arcane rituals, as practiced by Pythagorus, Newton...

Some of these numbers were very powerful, like pi. It is only a stretch to give power to words like God Saves, and to make them especially magical, to codify them, and have rules about them being written and said?

Heresy is part of this - heretics are those who do not play the game properly.

I spy magick!

[bcedaifu]

New Years' greetings cher comrade, fellow atheist, uniquely Hebrew, Sheshbazzar!!! Thank you for your input to the forum in general, and in this thread in particular.

This truly marvelous thread, the main point of which, on first glance, seems so innocent, so simple, so ordinary, in fact, has proven sufficiently subtle, such that the principal question posed, REMAINS UNANSWERED, several days later.

Congratulations Gorit Maqueda, well done....

First appearance is at Numbers 13:16
[snip Greek] Rendered in KJV Bible as 'Jehoshua'
In Exodus
17:10 [snip some more] The spelling Ἰησοῦς is used.
And in Zechariah
3:3 [more Greek snipped]
(see Zech 6:12-13 with regards to this particular name) it also occurs in many other verses of the LXX texts.

This is the same name and spelling that occurs in the Greek text of Matthew 1:16
[snip]

Thus this name appears with three spellings; Ἰησοῦν then Ἰησοῦς and Ἰησοῦ

The reason for the differing spellings is that in the adaption from Hebrew to Greek, The Greek linguistic custom is to attach a terminal ν or ς to indicate masculine gender.
This practice may also be seen in Greek renderings of all the Hebrew prophets names, vis 'Isaiah' becomes 'Isaias', 'Jerimiah' becomes 'Jerimiahs' ect.

In sum, the name Ἰησοῦς and Ἰησοῦ traces directly back to the LXX Ἰησοῦν 'Jehoshua' which is a construct of the ancient (but not exclusively 'Hebrew') Name יה 'YAH' and שוע 'shua' to 'HELP' or 'Deliver' ('save', 'Savior') see Ex 15:2)

So, then, here's my follow up question, on this issue. I am looking NOT at the LXX, which I believe represents a forgery, but, at the "Masoretic text", which may also have been forged, who knows?

In any event, the two versions are not so terribly different, but they are not identical, hence this question.

Let us look at the Romanized text of the Hebrew version of these three passages discovered by our Hebrew hero, and add the Latin, from Jerome's Vulgate, for each of these three passages, to highlight what I find very peculiar, and a bit disconcerting with respect to Sheshbazzar's explanation: In brief, I deny that any of those passages refer to Iesous, as employed by Matthew.

Numbers 13:16
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B04C013.htm#V16
Hebrew Transliterated: YHVSh'y Latin: Iosue

Exodus 17:10
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B02C017.htm#V10
Hebrew Transliterated: YHVSh'y Latin: Iosue

Zech 3:3
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B38C003.htm#V3
Hebrew Transliterated: VYHVSh'y Latin: Iesus

And just like that, Iesus pops up! Why? Is the additional letter, V, in front of YHVSh'y, definitive for Iesus, or, does this translation say more about the politics of the day, and Jerome's role (Eusebius' son) in spreading the good word? In the famous word of MaryHelena, "methinks" we need Sheshbazzar to provide a teensy weensy explanation of the Hebrew (is that the origin of the word Jabberwocky?) here, with a focus on explaining how Jerome could offer Iesus, instead of Iosue, based simply on addition of one consonant, V, in front of a mouthful of Hebreic vowels?

More importantly, in my opinion, do the two Hebrew words, YHVSh'y and VYHVSh'y convey the same meaning:
"I am the Saviour"? Are they pronounced differently? Do they correspond to two different prenoms, say, like "tom" and "tim", or "Harry" and "Barry", or do they simply present that slightly different form in accord with Hebrew grammatical esoterica, i.e. conveying identical messages, but with different linguistic roles in the language? Can you offer conjecture as to why Jerome changed the derivative, of VYHVSh'y from Iosue to Iesus?

[Stephan Huller]

Why? Is the additional letter, V, in front of YHVSh'y ... do the two Hebrew words, YHVSh'y and VYHVSh'y convey the same meaning

Can't you find something else to do with your time, Tanya? I mean, if after ten years of this you don't know the answer to this question maybe you should train dogs to do circus tricks or something. If I had the money I would fly you to a secret location and study the working of your brain. Why exactly do you engage in the study of religion when you don't have the cognitive ability to understand even the most basic concepts? I guess though this made my day. Sort of like watching monkeys drive around clown cars and smashing into one another. Thanks for the chuckle.