Reconstructing the original story of Paul

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RandyHelzerman
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Very curiously, if you take all of the "we" passages in Acts, and bring them all together, they have holes *exactly where* your plot points below should have appeared:
rgprice wrote:
1) The appearance of Jesus to Paul, which led to his conversion.
2) Paul engaging in a ministry and gaining followers who traveled with him.
3) Paul meeting with Peter, James and John in Jerusalem but being in conflict with them.
4) Paul baptizing someone who had only known "the baptism of John" (the pillar).
5) Paul going to the temple in Jerusalem and then being arrested there.
6) Paul being put on trial in Jerusalem for teaching against the law.
7) Paul being "freed" by being "handed over to the gentiles".

Its almost uncanny that your list above fits into the gaps in the "we" narrative so well. For your convenience, I brought all the "we" stuff together, and slotted in your plot points. Your first 3 plot points start the narrative:
1) The appearance of Jesus to Paul, which led to his conversion.
2) Paul engaging in a ministry and gaining followers who traveled with him.
3) Paul meeting with Peter, James and John in Jerusalem but being in conflict with them.

During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

11 From Troas we put out to sea and sailed straight for Samothrace, and the next day we went on to Neapolis. 12 From there we traveled to Philippi, a Roman colony and the leading city of that district[a] of Macedonia. And we stayed there several days.

13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”

4) Paul baptizing someone who had only known "the baptism of John" (the pillar).

These men went on ahead and waited for us at Troas. 6 But we sailed from Philippi after the Festival of Unleavened Bread, and five days later joined the others at Troas, where we stayed seven days.

7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.

We went on ahead to the ship and sailed for Assos, where we were going to take Paul aboard. He had made this arrangement because he was going there on foot. 14 When he met us at Assos, we took him aboard and went on to Mitylene. 15 The next day we set sail from there and arrived off Chios. The day after that we crossed over to Samos, and on the following day arrived at Miletus.

After we had torn ourselves away from them, we put out to sea and sailed straight to Kos. The next day we went to Rhodes and from there to Patara. 2 We found a ship crossing over to Phoenicia, went on board and set sail. 3 After sighting Cyprus and passing to the south of it, we sailed on to Syria. We landed at Tyre, where our ship was to unload its cargo. 4 We sought out the disciples there and stayed with them seven days.

[missing plot point here]

Through the Spirit they urged Paul not to go on to Jerusalem. 5 When it was time to leave, we left and continued on our way. All of them, including wives and children, accompanied us out of the city, and there on the beach we knelt to pray. 6 After saying goodbye to each other, we went aboard the ship, and they returned home.

7 We continued our voyage from Tyre and landed at Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed with them for a day. 8 Leaving the next day, we eached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.

10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”

12 When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, “Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, “The Lord’s will be done.”

15 After this, we started on our way up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the disciples from Caesarea accompanied us and brought us to the home of Mnason, where we were to stay. He was a man from Cyprus and one of the early disciples.


When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present.

5) Paul going to the temple in Jerusalem and then being arrested there.

6) Paul being put on trial in Jerusalem for teaching against the law.

7) Paul being "freed" by being "handed over to the gentiles".

When it was decided that we would sail for Italy, Paul and some other prisoners were handed over to a centurion named Julius, who belonged to the Imperial Regiment. 2 We boarded a ship from Adramyttium about to sail for ports along the coast of the province of Asia, and we put out to sea. Aristarchus, a Macedonian from Thessalonica, was with us.

3 The next day we landed at Sidon; and Julius, in kindness to Paul, allowed him to go to his friends so they might provide for his needs. 4 From there we put out to sea again and passed to the lee of Cyprus because the winds were against us. 5 When we had sailed across the open sea off the coast of Cilicia and Pamphylia, we landed at Myra in Lycia. 6 There the centurion found an Alexandrian ship sailing for Italy and put us on board. 7 We made slow headway for many days and had difficulty arriving off Cnidus. When the wind did not allow us to hold our course, we sailed to the lee of Crete, opposite Salmone. 8 We moved along the coast with difficulty and came to a place called Fair Havens, near the town of Lasea.

9 Much time had been lost, and sailing had already become dangerous because by now it was after the Day of Atonement.[a] So Paul warned them, 10 “Men, I can see that our voyage is going to be disastrous and bring great loss to ship and cargo, and to our own lives also.” 11 But the centurion, instead of listening to what Paul said, followed theadvice of the pilot and of the owner of the ship. 12 Since the harbor was unsuitable to winter in, the majority decided that we should sail on, hoping to reach Phoenix and winter there. This was a harbor in Crete, facing both southwest and northwest.

13 When a gentle south wind began to blow, they saw their opportunity; so they weighed anchor and sailed along the shore of Crete. 14 Before very long, a wind of hurricane force, called the Northeaster, swept down from the island. 15 The ship was caught by the storm and could not head into the wind; so we gave way to it and were driven along. 16 As we passed to the lee of a small island called Cauda, we were hardly able to make the lifeboat secure, 17 so the men hoisted it aboard. Then they passed ropes under the ship itself to hold it together. Because they were afraid they would run aground on the sandbars of Syrtis, they lowered the sea anchor and let the ship be driven along. 18 We took such a violent battering from the storm that the next day they began to throw the cargo overboard. 19 On the third day, they threw the ship’s tackle overboard with their own hands. 20 When neither sun nor stars appeared for many days and the storm continued raging, we finally gave up all hope of being saved.

After they had gone a long time without food, Paul stood up before them and said: “Men, you should have taken my advice not to sail from Crete; then you would have spared yourselves this damage and loss. But now I urge you to keep up your courage, because not one of you will be lost; only the ship will be destroyed. 23 Last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me 24 and said, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul. You must stand trial before Caesar; and God has graciously given you the lives of all who sail with you.’ 25 So keep up your courage, men, for I have faith in God that it will happen just as he told me. 26 Nevertheless, we must run aground on some island.”

27 On the fourteenth night we were still being driven across the Adriatic[c] Sea, when about midnight the sailors sensed they were approaching land. 28 They took soundings and found that the water was a hundred and twenty feet[d] deep. A short time later they took soundings again and found it was ninety feet[e] deep. 29 Fearing that we would be dashed against the rocks, they dropped four anchors from the stern and prayed for daylight. 30 In an attempt to escape from the ship, the sailors let the lifeboat down into the sea, pretending they were going to lower some anchors from the bow. 31 Then Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay with the ship, you cannot be saved.” 32 So the soldiers cut the ropes that held the lifeboat and let it drift away.

33 Just before dawn Paul urged them all to eat. “For the last fourteen days,” he said, “you have been in constant suspense and have gone without food—you haven’t eaten anything. 34 Now I urge you to take some food. You need it to survive. Not one of you will lose a single hair from his head.” 35 After he said this, he took some bread and gave thanks to God in front of them all. Then he broke it and began to eat. 36 They were all encouraged and ate some food themselves. 37 Altogether there were 276 of us on board.

Once safely on shore, we found out that the island was called Malta. 2 The islanders showed us unusual kindness. They built a fire and welcomed us all because it was raining and cold. 3 Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” 5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. 6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

7 There was an estate nearby that belonged to Publius, the chief official of the island. He welcomed us to his home and showed us generous hospitality for three days. 8 His father was sick in bed, suffering from fever and dysentery. Paul went in to see him and, after prayer, placed his hands on him and healed him. 9 When this had happened, the rest of the sick on the island came and were cured. 10 They honored us in many ways; and when we were ready to sail, they furnished us with the supplies we needed.

After three months we put out to sea in a ship that had wintered in the island—it was an Alexandrian ship with the figurehead of the twin gods Castor and Pollux. We put in at Syracuse and stayed there three days. 13 From there we set sail and arrived at Rhegium. The next day the south wind came up, and on the following day we reached Puteoli. 14 There we found some brothers and sisters who invited us to spend a week with them.

And so we came to Rome. 15 The brothers and sisters there had heard that we were coming, and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to meet us. At the sight of these people Paul thanked God and was encouraged. 16 When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him.

rgprice
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by rgprice »

maryhelena wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:32 am From an old post.
Paul? As much a literary creation as is the gospel figure of Jesus. Paul as Jesus Reboot or Jesus as Paul Reboot? Although Richard Pervo has not gone that far (Thomas Brodie has opted for a literary Paul...) Pervo's chart, below, certainly raises many question.....


The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo


Table 6.1: Jesus and Paul: Some Examples (Page 107) The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo

Jesus Paul
1. "Passion Predictions" 1. "Passion Predictions"
Luke 9:22 Acts 20:23-25
Luke 9:34 Acts 21:4
Luke 18:31 Acts 21:11-13
2. Farewell Address 2. Farewell Address
Luke 22:14-38 Acts 20:17-35
3. Resurrection: Sadducees Oppose 3. Resurrection: Sadducees Oppose
Luke 20:27-39 Acts 23:6-10
4. Staff of High Priest Slap Jesus 4. Staff of High Priest Slap Paul
Luke 22:63-64 Acts 23:1-2
5. Four "Trials" of Jesus 5. Four "Trials" of Paul
A. Sanhedrin: Luke 22:66-71 A. Sanhedrin: Acts 22:30-23:10
B. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:1-5 B. Roman Governor (Felix) 24:1-22
C. Herodian King (Antipas) Luke 23:6-12 C. Herodian King (Agrippa) 26
D. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:13-25 D. Roman Governor (Festus) 25:6-12
6. Declarations of Innocence 6. Declarations of Innocence
Pilate: Luke 23:14 (cf.23:4,22) Lysias (Tribune) Acts 23:29
Herod: Luke 23:14 Festus: Acts 25:25
Centurian: Luke 23:47 Agrippa: Acts 26:31
7. Mob Demands Execution 7. Mob Demands Execution
Luke 23:18 Acts 22:22

Page 108

The point has been made. The parallels between the passion of Jesus in Luke and Paul’s experiences in Jerusalem are too numerous and too transparent to deny. But after chapter 26 this symmetry seems to collapse. Whereas the Gospel goes on to relate the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, Acts narrates Paul’s voyage, shipwreck, survival, and eventual arrival in Rome. This much remains undeniable: the voyage and its aftermath occupy the same structural position in Acts as the crucifixion and its sequel have in Luke. The alternatives are clear: either Luke carefully erected his parallelism between the respective fates of Jesus and Paul until he came to the end of their legal hearings and then dropped it overboard, or the existence of the parallel scheme invites critics towards further inquiry. The later looks like the more likely option. At the very least it is worth a try.
.
Indeed, but the assumption here is that the story of Paul is based on the Gospels and not the other way around. That's what I'm getting at is the evidence that the relationship goes the other way.

its complicated because Acts of Apostles as we have it has been entirely revised in the presence of the Gospels. So for what we have it, yes, Acts has been influenced by the Gospels, BUT the Gospels were also influenced by Acts, and this is because Acts of the Apostles is based on an earlier narrative about Paul. The writer of Acts used both the earlier narrative AND the Gospels to create his narrative.

Think about it like this. The Western movie The Magnificent Seven is based on the Japanese movie The Seven Samurai. If I find a copy of the script for The Seven Samurai and I write a new movie script called The Super Seven, and I base this movie's script on a combination of the script for The Seven Samurai and on the movie The Magnificent Seven, it will be difficult to tell if The Super Seven was based on one or the other. And it may even look like simply that The Super Seven was based on The Magnificent Seven only.

So if you don't know about The Seven Samurai it may look like someone wrote The Magnificent Seven independently, then someone copied the The Magnificent Seven to write The Super Seven. But, in fact, The Super Seven was based directly on the script of The Seven Samurai, with influences from The Magnificent Seven.

Now, that's what has happened here. There was a story about Paul. The Gospel of Mark was based on that story. Then the writer of Acts of the Apostles wrote his story based on a combination of the original story about Paul and the Gospel, which was itself also based on the story about Paul.

That's why is see strange things in Acts, like Acts 22:
14 Then he said, ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will, to see the Righteous One, and to hear his own voice, 15 for you will be his witness to all the world of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

This is a very strange thing to say. But that's because this comes from the original story, which was written prior to the Gospels based on the concept of a heavenly Jesus who had never been to earth.

In the original story is was only Paul who ever saw Jesus, and Paul saw him through a vision. Why would Paul be "chosen" as the one to "know his will"? According to the Gospels Jesus had just selected twelve disciples to pass his teachings to. Plus he came to earth himself to tell anyone who would listen what his will was. Why would he need Paul inform the world about him? Why would Paul be selected to "hear his voice"? Presumably hundreds of people had just heard his voice!

But that's because the writer of Acts is borrowing parts of the original story and leaving them unedited. That's where the first person passages come from, the original story. The reason he did that was to appropriate the identity of the original author, which was believed to be Luke. But this writer has also reworked many parts of the narrative and added in new elements from the Gospels as well.
rgprice
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by rgprice »

Its almost uncanny that your list above fits into the gaps in the "we" narrative so well. For your convenience, I brought all the "we" stuff together, and slotted in your plot points.
Yes, exactly. And the meeting with James is a perfect example. The part in yellow is first person. Then it switches abruptly to third person. There are a couple of versus that are ambiguous. My explanation for this is that the writer of canonical Acts of the Apostles was using the original narrative, which was in first person, but in the original narrative when Paul met James Paul did not subordinate himself to James and Paul had a conflict with James. So when the meeting begins, where in the original story the conflict would have developed, the orthodox revisor instead wanted Paul to be subordinated to James and to Judaize Paul. So he revises the narrative at that point, switching back to third person. This happen over and over again. The end of every first person block is a transition to the Judaizing of Paul and the subordination of Paul to the disciples or to other Jews.

7 When we had finished the voyage from Tyre, we arrived at Ptolemais, and we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed with them for one day. 8 The next day we left and came to Caesarea, and we went into the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 He had four unmarried daughters[c] who had the gift of prophecy. 10 While we were staying there for several days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 He came to us and took Paul’s belt, bound his own feet and hands with it, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘This is the way the Jews in Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and will hand him over to the gentiles.’ ” 12 When we heard this, we and the people there urged him not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound but even to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” 14 Since he would not be persuaded, we remained silent except to say, “The Lord’s will be done.”

15 After these days we got ready and started to go up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the disciples from Caesarea also came along and brought us to the house of Mnason of Cyprus, an early disciple, with whom we were to stay.

17 When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us warmly. 18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James, and all the elders were present.
19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God. Then they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the gentiles to forsake Moses and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you but that you yourself observe and guard the law. 25 But as for the gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled[d] and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them.

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maryhelena
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by maryhelena »

rgprice wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:39 pm
maryhelena wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:32 am From an old post.
Paul? As much a literary creation as is the gospel figure of Jesus. Paul as Jesus Reboot or Jesus as Paul Reboot? Although Richard Pervo has not gone that far (Thomas Brodie has opted for a literary Paul...) Pervo's chart, below, certainly raises many question.....


The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo


Table 6.1: Jesus and Paul: Some Examples (Page 107) The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo

Jesus Paul
1. "Passion Predictions" 1. "Passion Predictions"
Luke 9:22 Acts 20:23-25
Luke 9:34 Acts 21:4
Luke 18:31 Acts 21:11-13
2. Farewell Address 2. Farewell Address
Luke 22:14-38 Acts 20:17-35
3. Resurrection: Sadducees Oppose 3. Resurrection: Sadducees Oppose
Luke 20:27-39 Acts 23:6-10
4. Staff of High Priest Slap Jesus 4. Staff of High Priest Slap Paul
Luke 22:63-64 Acts 23:1-2
5. Four "Trials" of Jesus 5. Four "Trials" of Paul
A. Sanhedrin: Luke 22:66-71 A. Sanhedrin: Acts 22:30-23:10
B. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:1-5 B. Roman Governor (Felix) 24:1-22
C. Herodian King (Antipas) Luke 23:6-12 C. Herodian King (Agrippa) 26
D. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:13-25 D. Roman Governor (Festus) 25:6-12
6. Declarations of Innocence 6. Declarations of Innocence
Pilate: Luke 23:14 (cf.23:4,22) Lysias (Tribune) Acts 23:29
Herod: Luke 23:14 Festus: Acts 25:25
Centurian: Luke 23:47 Agrippa: Acts 26:31
7. Mob Demands Execution 7. Mob Demands Execution
Luke 23:18 Acts 22:22

Page 108

The point has been made. The parallels between the passion of Jesus in Luke and Paul’s experiences in Jerusalem are too numerous and too transparent to deny. But after chapter 26 this symmetry seems to collapse. Whereas the Gospel goes on to relate the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, Acts narrates Paul’s voyage, shipwreck, survival, and eventual arrival in Rome. This much remains undeniable: the voyage and its aftermath occupy the same structural position in Acts as the crucifixion and its sequel have in Luke. The alternatives are clear: either Luke carefully erected his parallelism between the respective fates of Jesus and Paul until he came to the end of their legal hearings and then dropped it overboard, or the existence of the parallel scheme invites critics towards further inquiry. The later looks like the more likely option. At the very least it is worth a try.
.
Indeed, but the assumption here is that the story of Paul is based on the Gospels and not the other way around. That's what I'm getting at is the evidence that the relationship goes the other way.

its complicated because Acts of Apostles as we have it has been entirely revised in the presence of the Gospels. So for what we have it, yes, Acts has been influenced by the Gospels, BUT the Gospels were also influenced by Acts, and this is because Acts of the Apostles is based on an earlier narrative about Paul. The writer of Acts used both the earlier narrative AND the Gospels to create his narrative.

Think about it like this. The Western movie The Magnificent Seven is based on the Japanese movie The Seven Samurai. If I find a copy of the script for The Seven Samurai and I write a new movie script called The Super Seven, and I base this movie's script on a combination of the script for The Seven Samurai and on the movie The Magnificent Seven, it will be difficult to tell if The Super Seven was based on one or the other. And it may even look like simply that The Super Seven was based on The Magnificent Seven only.

So if you don't know about The Seven Samurai it may look like someone wrote The Magnificent Seven independently, then someone copied the The Magnificent Seven to write The Super Seven. But, in fact, The Super Seven was based directly on the script of The Seven Samurai, with influences from The Magnificent Seven.

Now, that's what has happened here. There was a story about Paul. The Gospel of Mark was based on that story. Then the writer of Acts of the Apostles wrote his story based on a combination of the original story about Paul and the Gospel, which was itself also based on the story about Paul.

That's why is see strange things in Acts, like Acts 22:
14 Then he said, ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will, to see the Righteous One, and to hear his own voice, 15 for you will be his witness to all the world of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

This is a very strange thing to say. But that's because this comes from the original story, which was written prior to the Gospels based on the concept of a heavenly Jesus who had never been to earth.

In the original story is was only Paul who ever saw Jesus, and Paul saw him through a vision. Why would Paul be "chosen" as the one to "know his will"? According to the Gospels Jesus had just selected twelve disciples to pass his teachings to. Plus he came to earth himself to tell anyone who would listen what his will was. Why would he need Paul inform the world about him? Why would Paul be selected to "hear his voice"? Presumably hundreds of people had just heard his voice!

But that's because the writer of Acts is borrowing parts of the original story and leaving them unedited. That's where the first person passages come from, the original story. The reason he did that was to appropriate the identity of the original author, which was believed to be Luke. But this writer has also reworked many parts of the narrative and added in new elements from the Gospels as well.
You obviously put a lot of thought and work into your Paul theory. For myself, viewing the NT story as it is set out, as a literary story with a beginning and an end, makes sense as a story. Changing the story, in effect rewriting the story, creating a new story, in effect denies the story's creators their credibility. They have presented a back to front story in order to confuse their readers. It's one thing to say, as I do, that the NT is a literary story and hence should not be read as literal history. Its quite another thing to say the story needs to be rewritten in order to make sense. That is a huge step to take. The story has enough problems of its own. Adding more problems serves only to sidestep the existing problems.
rgprice
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by rgprice »

Compare the two accounts of trials. First Paul's trial:

Acts 23:
1 While Paul was looking intently at the council he said, “Brothers, up to this day I have lived my life with a clear conscience before God.” 2 Then the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near him to strike him on the mouth. 3 At this Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting there to judge me according to the law, and yet in violation of the law you order me to be struck?” 4 Those standing nearby said, “Do you dare to insult God’s high priest?” 5 And Paul said, “I did not realize, brothers, that he was high priest; for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a leader of your people.’”

6 When Paul noticed that some were Sadducees and others were Pharisees, he called out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. I am on trial concerning the hope of the resurrection of the dead.” 7 When he said this, a dissension began between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, or angel, or spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge all three.) 9 Then a great clamor arose, and certain scribes of the Pharisees’ group stood up and contended, “We find nothing wrong with this man. What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?” 10 When the dissension became violent, the tribune, fearing that they would tear Paul to pieces, ordered the soldiers to go down, take him by force, and bring him into the barracks.


Acts 4:
7 When they had made the prisoners stand in their midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are questioned today because of a good deed done to someone who was sick and are asked how this man has been healed, 10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that this man is standing before you in good health by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead. 11 This Jesus is, ‘the stone that was rejected by you, the builders; it has become the cornerstone.’

12 There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved.”
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John and realized that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were amazed and recognized them as companions of Jesus.

The council told Peter and John to stop spreading the teachings of Jesus, but they did nothing to punish them. This trial, likely concocted by the writer of Acts of the Apostles, completely meets our expectation of what a trial narrative about followers of Jesus should look like. This is essentially what we would expect someone to say who is making up a story about disciples of the Gospel Jesus being on trial.

Yet the trial of Paul is entirely different. There is no mention of Jesus, the Pharisees come to Paul's defense, despite the Pharisees being antagonists in the Gospels. Nothing is explained. The whole scene is a disaster. Even the Acts Seminar write the following about the trial of Paul:

The first subsection is among the most bewildering scenes in the book of Acts. Paul begins to defend himself but is struck on orders of the high priest (Acts 23:1–2). Luke gives the reader no clue as to the reason for Ananias’ action. Paul has not said anything approaching blasphemy, nor has he insulted the high priest. But Paul’s outburst in 23:3 appears to be over the top. In it he accuses the high priest of violating the law, although no law is cited. But these questions pale into insignificance when compared with Paul’s statement in 23:5. When told that he has cursed the high priest, Paul says that he did not know the presiding officer at the Sanhedrin was the high priest. He issues something short of an apology, quoting Scripture to condemn his own actions. It is difficult to accept Paul’s denial about the high priest. We learned in 9:1–2 that he had been commissioned by the high priest to search out Jesus believers, and in just the previous speech he claimed that the high priest, and indeed the entire Jewish council, could support the fact that he once persecuted these believers (see 22:5). Of course some time has passed between the persecuting activity of Paul and the present hearing, and it is possible that Luke understands that the present occupant of this office is a different one. But this is not noted in the text (see also 4:6, where the high priest is given a similar name—Annas). There have been numerous attempts to illuminate this passage, but the problems remain.

Clearly, this isn't a case of one writer having written these two from scratch. The trial of Peter, etc. is clearly developed based on the Gospels. The trial of Paul appears to be a poor cut and paste job from a longer scene, which has been heavily redacted.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by RandyHelzerman »

rgprice wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 3:55 am I1) The appearance of Jesus to Paul, which led to his conversion.
For the plot point above, I still think the first chapters of Galatians (the Marcionite version) is a great fit. I lightly edited it, rearranging a very few orders, because Markus Vinzent's reconstruction is fragmentary. (I also put the proper verbiage in where Jesus reveals himself to Paul)


MarcionGalatians wrote:
Now I tell to you brothers, the euangelion that was euangelized by me is not of human derivation.

You heard that I was persecuting to an extreme the assembly of the god and was waging war on it, living exceedingly rivalrous over the paternal traditions of mine.

But then, the Annointed Jesus apeared to me. He said to me, "Paul, Paul, why do you kick against the pricks?"

Therefore, I did not receive the Gospel from a human, neither was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Anointed.

So that I might euangelize him among the gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, neither did I come to Jerusalem.

Instead, I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. Yet I was unknown by face to the assemblies of Judea that were in [the] Anointed. And only then did they hear that the one persecuting them formerly was now euangelizing the faith that previously he was destroying. And they glorified the god in me.

Then after fourteen years, I went up into Jerusalem to visit with Peter But I did not see any other of the emissaries except James, the brother of the lord.

I went up on account of a revelation, and I declared to them the euangelion that I proclaim among the gentiles, lest in vain I was running or had run.

Peter and James and John gave the right hand to me, so that I would go to the gentiles, they to the circumcision. They just wanted me to remember the poor, in Jerusalem.

Not even Titus who was with me, though being Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. Not even for one hour did we yield in submission, so that the truth of the euangelion might persevere in relation to you.

But from those reputed to be something— whatever they were formerly makes no difference to me; god does not accept a human’s face— for to me the reputed contributed nothing.

I opposed Peter to his face, because he was self-condemned, fearing those of the circumcision, and they were cosplaying along with him.

RandyHelzerman
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by RandyHelzerman »

There is one aporia in the proposal, above. That is, it looks like here Paul is talking about one trip to Jerusalem---but It says he met only Peter and James. Then he says Peter James and John gave him the right hand of fellowship.

But that aporia is in the source text--it is even in the Canonical version of Galatians. Like you said about the trial of Paul, it looks ike a bad editing job---perhaps to condense the story the redactor tried to merge two trips to Jerusalem into one.

It would make more sense if Paul had to go to Jerusalem multiple times to get everybody on board with his gospel. But it would emphasize the split between Petrine and Pauline christianity, and certainly the more times he had to go there to hound everybody into going in the same direction. the less "original, authentic' his gospel would appear.

And it would make it look less like Paul could only get them on board after he just dumped a whole bunch of money on the table to buy their votes.

Dunno man, the rest of it reads very well and it covers the bases you wanted to hit with your plot point #1. And it is all-but verbatim lifted from the source found in a link this page here: https://zenodo.org/records/8271824
rgprice
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by rgprice »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 3:42 pm There is one aporia in the proposal, above. That is, it looks like here Paul is talking about one trip to Jerusalem---but It says he met only Peter and James. Then he says Peter James and John gave him the right hand of fellowship.

But that aporia is in the source text--it is even in the Canonical version of Galatians. Like you said about the trial of Paul, it looks ike a bad editing job---perhaps to condense the story the redactor tried to merge two trips to Jerusalem into one.

It would make more sense if Paul had to go to Jerusalem multiple times to get everybody on board with his gospel. But it would emphasize the split between Petrine and Pauline christianity, and certainly the more times he had to go there to hound everybody into going in the same direction. the less "original, authentic' his gospel would appear.

And it would make it look less like Paul could only get them on board after he just dumped a whole bunch of money on the table to buy their votes.

Dunno man, the rest of it reads very well and it covers the bases you wanted to hit with your plot point #1. And it is all-but verbatim lifted from the source found in a link this page here: https://zenodo.org/records/8271824
It does make me wonder about the multiple trips in the Gospel of John, though. Paul takes multiple trips in Acts, and I think this makes sense given his letters.

A big issue, though, is that in the forwards to each letter in the Apostolikon indicate that Paul was imprisoned in Ephesus and imply that he was sent to Rome from Ephesus, although this isn't certain. It could be that he was imprisoned adn Jerusalem and then sent to Ephesus from there, and from Ephesus on to Rome. But this isn't how the story goes in Acts.

But I think its possible that the original story included multiple trips to Jerusalem. Its certainly hard to say for sure. But the trips would make more sense to be organized differently than they are in Acts.

I think its pretty clear that the writer of Acts was using a source narrative about Paul, and that he heavily redacted and reworked this narrative, but left some part of it in place. This is similar to how he used proto-Luke for the Gospel as well. But the original narrative has been so heavily revised its really hard to say for sure how it went originally.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Reconstructing the original story of Paul

Post by RandyHelzerman »

rgprice wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:43 am
RandyHelzerman wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 3:42 pm It would make more sense if Paul had to go to Jerusalem multiple times to get everybody on board with his gospel. But it would emphasize the split between Petrine and Pauline christianity, and certainly the more times he had to go there to hound everybody into going in the same direction. the less "original, authentic' his gospel would appear.

And it would make it look less like Paul could only get them on board after he just dumped a whole bunch of money on the table to buy their votes.

But I think its possible that the original story included multiple trips to Jerusalem. Its certainly hard to say for sure. But the trips would make more sense to be organized differently than they are in Acts.
Yeah, and Paul's last trip to Jerusalem in Acts doesn't really sound like history---the crowd calling for his death, his being hauled before authorities--seems to me to suspiciously resemble the passion narrative of Christ. Paul was being portrayed as a Christlike figure.
I think its pretty clear that the writer of Acts was using a source narrative about Paul, and that he heavily redacted and reworked this narrative, but left some part of it in place. This is similar to how he used proto-Luke for the Gospel as well. But the original narrative has been so heavily revised its really hard to say for sure how it went originally.
The older narrative would certainly LOOK like it was highly reworked to the point of extiguishment--but I'll bet that is an illusion. If Acts is based upon earlier narrative (and it probably is) I would imagine it would be in Acts much like Mark is in Luke. Almost verbatim copied, with grammar tidied up, the order of events maintained--nevertheless, merged with other source texts so skillfully that without the original narrative, it would be hopeless to try and extract from Acts.

if there is an earlier narrative, its probably staring us right in the face, just like Mark is staring using the the face when we read Luke. The order of the events is probably virtually unchanged, but other events have probably been woven in, and so skillfully layered in as to sound like they all come from one voice. Very clumsy redactional seams (like the We Passages) are all but absent in Luke.
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