Osiris' empty tomb found in Egypt - 500-700 BCE

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Score one for Richard Carrier

Along with Zeus' tomb on Crete, I think we can at least establish that empty tombs were a long established myththeme and trope before Mark's Gospel.

[outhouse]

I think we can at least establish that empty tombs were a long established myththeme and trope before Mark's Gospel.

Can we ?


“the burial chambers contain dead who slept their eternal sleep under the god of the dead, Osiris". -

[John T]

Just how did Carrier score one?

"According to Egyptian mythology, Osiris, god of the underworld, was killed by Set, god of storms, disorder and violence, who shut Osiris in a coffin and threw it in the Nile river. After his body was recovered by Isis, Set tore his body into pieces and threw them back into the river. Isis collected all the pieces and bandaged the body together. This form of Osiris traveled to the underworld in a boat and became god of the dead.

The only body part Isis could not locate was the phallus, as it had been eaten by catfish. Isis created a golden phallus and briefly brought Osiris back to life with a spell, which gave her enough time to become pregnant by Osiris before he returned to death. Isis later gave birth to Horus, who became seen as a representation of new beginnings and the destroyer of the evil Set."...April Holloway

John T

[PhilosopherJay]

What empty tomb?

Gospel of Mark:
And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Gospel of Matthew
[2] And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
[3] His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
[4] And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
[5] And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
[6] He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
[7] And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Gospel of Luke:
[3] And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
[4] And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
[5] And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
[6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
[7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Gospel of John.
[4] So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
[5] And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
[6] Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
[7] And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
[8] Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
[9] For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
[10] Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
[11] But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
[12] And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
[13] And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
[14] And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
[15] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
[16] Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

In Mark, we find in the tomb a young man in a white garment.
In Matthew, nobody goes into the tomb, but there's an angel with a face like lightning and clothed in white sitting on the stone outside the tomb.
In Luke, there are two men in shining garments in the tomb.
In John, there's linen clothes and a napkin and two angels in white.

There were no men or angels found in the Osiris tomb because the Osiris tomb is a real tomb, but the tomb in the gospels is a fictional tomb.

[outhouse]

Along with Zeus' tomb on Crete,.

This literary trope???????????????? really, your going there?

[outhouse]

What empty tomb?

.

Way to stay in context !

[GakuseiDon]

Diodorus Siculus (First Century BCE) writes the following about tombs of Osiris:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/1A*.html

• When Osiris was ruling over Egypt as its lawful king, he was murdered by his brother Typhon, a violent and impious man; Typhon then divided the body of the slain man into twenty-six pieces and gave one portion to each of the band of murderers, since he wanted all of them to share in the pollution and felt that in this way he would have in them steadfast supporters and defenders of his rule. 3 But Isis, the sister and wife of Osiris, avenged his murder with the aid of her son Horus, and after slaying Typhon and his accomplices became queen over Egypt...
  
  Over each piece of the body, as the account goes, she fashioned out of spices and wax a human figure about the size of Osiris; 6 then summoning the priests group by group, she required all of them an oath that they would reveal to no one the trust which she was going to confide to them, and taking each group of them apart privately she said that she was consigning to them alone the burial of the body, and after reminding them of the benefactions of Osiris she exhorted them to bury his body in their own district and pay honours to him as to a god...
  
  And the priests, it is said, being mindful of the benefactions of Osiris and eager to please the queen p69who was petitioning them, and incited as well by their own profit, did everything just as Isis had suggested. 9 It is for this reason that even to this day each group of priests supposes that Osiris lies buried in their district...

The tradition seems to have been: lots of tombs, with a body in each.

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Outhouse,

Sorry for the lack of clarity. The term "empty tomb" is misleading because the tomb is not found empty in any of the four gospels.
In the earliest story that we have in Mark, there is a new man dressed in white in the tomb. We may take this in a number of different ways. Jesus might have been a shape-shifter and he has turned into the young man or Jesus may have been reincarnated as the young man. Since Jesus is always portrayed as shocking people with his magical powers, this may be taken as another instance of that.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

What empty tomb?

.

Way to stay in context !

[outhouse]

In the earliest story that we have in Mark, there is a new man dressed in white in the tomb.

Mythology.


And context we are talking about being empty of one body of Jesus, but thanks for playing.

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Outhouse,

The tomb being empty of Jesus' body is simply explained by the fact that his disciples moved the body. The writer of Mark has carefully designed his tomb story to attack the idea that this happened. The tomb being empty of Jesus' body is not a miracle in itself or even a mystery. The other disciples simply moved it to a different location is the obvious answer to the question of why no body was found in the tomb. It is the Man in White pronouncing that Jesus has risen that is the key element, not the empty tomb. The Man in White clearly marks the tomb story as a fiction and just another fantastic miracle story in a tale made up of fantastic miracle stories.

Imagine a bunch of self-proclaimed scholars who claim that Charles Dickens' story is actual history and writing about the sudden transformation of Ebenezer Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol" They call it "the Mystery of Scrooge's Transformation" and leave out the part of the narrative about the four ghosts. Obviously, there is no mystery about his transformation. The answer is that the work is fiction and he was visited by four ghosts. The story was designed to explain exactly why he changed from a miser to a generous person. Only by forgetting about the four ghosts does it become a mystery.
In the same way only by forgetting about the Man in White (or angel, or two men, or two angels) does the empty tomb become an alleged historical problem.

And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 15:45And when he learned it of the centurion, he granted the corpse to Joseph. 15:46And he bought a linen cloth, and taking him down, wound him in the linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of a rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. 15:47And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

16:1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. 16:2And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen. 16:3And they were saying among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the tomb? 16:4and looking up, they see that the stone is rolled back: for it was exceeding great. 16:5And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed. 16:6And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him! 16:7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. 16:8And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.

The text says that Joseph was a secret disciple. He has to be a secret disciple because if he was just an open disciple, he would have gone to the other disciples to report Jesus' death to them and they would have decided what to do with the body.
The text says that Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of Joses, saw where he was lain. It is ridiculous to think that Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of Joses, just stood at the crucifixion site for hours after Jesus died just watching his dead body. What was the point of them watching a dead body for hours? They obviously could not have had any idea that a secret disciple would take down the body and bury it?
Again, if one of the disciples had seen where the body was buried, we may assume that the disciple would have told the other disciples and they would have moved the body. That is why it has to be two women instead of a disciple who sees the body being buried.
Mark has the two women see the body and keep it a secret apparently for two days. The rolled stone acts as a kind of lock on the tomb to assure the audience that no random disciple came by, discovered the body came and took it.

Thus the three elements of 1) the secret disciple, 2) the two women seeing the body buried, and 3) the stone rolled in front of the tomb are all created and designed to deny the idea that the disciples stole the body.

Mark could have had the two women pronounce that Jesus must be risen, but after all they are women, so that would not have meant much. For that reason the mysterious Man in White suddenly appears without explanation and makes the pronouncement.

One could say that the empty tomb is a mystery or a problem, if the Man in White wasn't there. Unfortunately for proponents of the Historical Jesus myth, he is there in variations in all four gospels.

The mystery is not the empty tomb, the mystery is the Man in White. Is he Jesus transformed? Is he an angel? Is he another magic man who moved the stone and brought Jesus back to life?

In fact the answer is that it does not matter, because he is a deus-ex-machina created to get the writer out of the jam of explaining why the disciples could not have moved the body.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

In the earliest story that we have in Mark, there is a new man dressed in white in the tomb.

Mythology.


And context we are talking about being empty of one body of Jesus, but thanks for playing.