Serapis-Christian links overlays??

[MrMacSon]

How (relatively) numerous were the temples of Isis or Demeter or Aphrodite, do you know?

I don't know about the temples of Isis or Demeter or Aphrodite. There are various references (cited above) to Serapia. But, from above -

In 48 BCE, the Roman Senate ordered that all chapels devoted to Isis and other images of Egyptian gods be broken. The hatred for Egyptians as demonstrated by Roman senators and carried out by Roman born citizens and its military took another sinister turn in 28 CE. In 28 CE, the Roman senate launched another attack upon the Egyptians, excluding all Alexandrian divinities from the limits of the Pomoerium (the sacred boundary of the city of Rome: beyond the walls of Rome, Romans considered the rest to be “just land”)—a proscription that Agrippa extended for an additional seven years and increased the sphere a thousand paces from the city. By 49 CE, the feeling against the Egyptians ran so high, on account of a scandal in which Egyptian priests were involved, that the most drastic proceedings were taken against the followers of Serapis and on any Jew who was from Alexandria (the majority of Jews in Rome came from Alexandria) or other cities in Egypt.

Or how big was the cult in a relative sense? Maybe there is no data.

Unlikely to be any data, but the cult of Serapis was, apparently, very popular with the masses (also stated in two references above)

Are there any statistics on how the (temples) architecture of these cults was distributed around the cities of the Roman Empire in antiquity?

I dunno.

[Leucius Charinus]

Copied from another thread.


Extracted from Cambridge Ancient History Volume 12 OFFICIAL RELIGION

• p.412
  
  Religion in the Roman Empire was governed
  by the princeps, as "Pontifex Maximus"
  a member of all priestly colleges and
  responsible for all public morals and well being.
  
  
  
  The following is evidenced by coins and temple foundations:
  
  Claudius: magnified the cult of Cybele.
  
  Gauis: in Rome introduced Osiris (and other Egyptian deities accepted in Italy)
  
  Vespasian: favored Isis and Sarapis.
  
  Domitian: was a benefactor of Isis, Minerva and Jupiter
  
  Hadrian: built the temple of Venus and restored many temples in Rome.
  
  Severan Dynasty: sponsored Bacchus, Hercules and Sarapis.
  
  Illyrian Dynasty: were devoted to Vesta.
  
  Aurelian: built the temple of Sol Invictus, celebrated 25th December and established priestly colleges.
  
  Diocletian: supported Sol Invictus, Isis, Sarapis, Jupiter and Hercules.

So it would seem that Serapis was worshipped sporadically by the Emperors through to as late as Diocletian.




LC

[MrMacSon]

Diocletian - a Roman emperor from 284 to 305

Yes, Serapia were still being built through the Roman Empire in the 3rd C - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 909#p27909

Ammianus Marcellinus "wrote, in Latin, a history of the Roman empire from the accession of Nerva (96) to the death of Valens at the Battle of Adrianople (378)[15] in effect writing a continuation of the history of Tacitus. He presumably completed the work before 391, since at 22.16.12 he praises the Serapeum in Egypt as the glory of the empire; but in that year the Emperor granted the temple grounds to the Christian bishop, which provoked the pagans to barricade themselves in the temple, plundering its contents and torturing Christians, leading to the temple's destruction in the ensuing mob violence."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammianus_Marcellinus#Work

[MrMacSon]

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 232#p31232

The Christians among them [the Egyptians] are worshippers of Serapis, and those calling themselves bishops of Christ scruple not to act as the votaries of that God. The truth is, there is no one, whether Ruler of a synagogue, or Samaritan, or Presbyter of the Christians, or mathematician, or astrologer, or magician, that does not do homage to Serapis. The Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is by some compelled to worship Serapis, and by others, Christ.

The source for this is the "Historia Augusta" which is extremely unreliable and its genre has been described as a "mockumentary". Fake Documents abound - totalling 160 forgeries, fake dates, the Novel Invention of (a) Fake Sources and (b) other Fake Sources which disagree with them.

160 forgeries of the "Historia Augusta"?

A few others who cited that passage also referenced 'Giles, 1986 ii p86', which I didn't seek to clarify at the time.

'Giles, ii p86' is

• Rev. John Allen Giles (1877) Hebrew and Christian Records: An Historical Enquiry Concerning the Age and Authorship of the Old and New Testaments, Volume 1 - (Giles was a fellow at Corpus Christi College in Oxford).

[MrMacSon]

I think the proposition that Hadrian's letter to Servianus is a forgery, b/c Historia Augusta overall is full of forgery, needs to be taken on context of other aspects of the role of Serapis in Hadrian's life, including him having a serapium, and having visited Egypt (possibly in relation to death of a male lover: Antinous?)

Hadrian's letter to Servianus, in Historia Augusta

in English http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... al*.html#8

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus22 the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. 2 There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. 3 There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. 4 Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, p401 by others to worship Christ. 5 They are a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury; but their city is prosperous, rich, and fruitful, and in it no one is idle. 6 Some are blowers of glass, others makers of paper, all are at least weavers of linen23 or seem to belong to one craft or another; the lame have their occupations, the eunuchs have theirs, the blind have theirs, and not even those whose hands are crippled are idle. 7 Their only god is money, and this the Christians, the Jews, and, in fact, all nations adore. And would that this city had a better character, for indeed it is worthy by reason of its richness and by reason of its size to hold the chief place in the whole of Egypt. 8 I granted it every favour, I restored to it all its ancient rights and bestowed on it new ones besides, so that the people gave thanks to me while I was present among them. Then, no sooner had I departed thence than they said many things against my son Verus,24 and what they said about Antinous25 I believe you have learned. 9 I can only wish for them that they may live on their own chickens, which they breed in a fashion I am ashamed to describe.26 10 I am sending you over some cups, changing colour27 and variegated, presented to me by the priest of a temple and now dedicated particularly to you and my sister. I should like you to use them at banquets on feast-days. Take good care, however, that our dear Africanus28 does not use them too freely."

in Latin http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/R ... al*.html#8

[MrMacSon]

Sirpa Montonen (2010) The English Version of Jesus Chrestus BoD - Books on Demand. ISBN 9524984407, 9789524984409 at Amazon

"Jesus Chrestus tells about Jesus Christ, who established Christianity in Rome instead of Judea, despite of all beliefs. Jesus as a name was, in its original form, Isus, which was used by a male high priest of Isis' temple. Jesus Chrestus tells 'the truth' on Christianity and its birth story in the city of Rome."

A preview via google books. The text does not seem to be particularly good English (ie. a poor translation from Finnish?)

WORSHIP OF THE FAITH p. 18

"Pliny the Younger refers clearly in his letter on his opinion that the Christian Sect was still worshipping [the] cult religion of Greco-Egyptian Isis and Serapis"

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=XN ... is&f=false

TALMUD p. 93

"Talmud gives a different picture of Jesus compared to the Christian view of the Christ ...

.... < snip > ...

"God of early Christians was Serapis, who was worshipped at the temple of Isis. Chrestus was its high priest known as Isus and the founder of the Christian Sect. The name was changed to Jesus Christ for the Bible on the basis of Greek texts."

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=XN ... is&f=false

Is that what the Talmud says? or an interpretation, assertion, or misrepresentation about what it says??

[arnoldo]

How (relatively) numerous were the temples of Isis or Demeter or Aphrodite, do you know?

I don't know about the temples of Isis or Demeter or Aphrodite. There are various references (cited above) to Serapia. But, from above -

In 48 BCE, the Roman Senate ordered that all chapels devoted to Isis and other images of Egyptian gods be broken. The hatred for Egyptians as demonstrated by Roman senators and carried out by Roman born citizens and its military took another sinister turn in 28 CE. In 28 CE, the Roman senate launched another attack upon the Egyptians, excluding all Alexandrian divinities from the limits of the Pomoerium (the sacred boundary of the city of Rome: beyond the walls of Rome, Romans considered the rest to be “just land”)—a proscription that Agrippa extended for an additional seven years and increased the sphere a thousand paces from the city. By 49 CE, the feeling against the Egyptians ran so high, on account of a scandal in which Egyptian priests were involved, that the most drastic proceedings were taken against the followers of Serapis and on any Jew who was from Alexandria (the majority of Jews in Rome came from Alexandria) or other cities in Egypt.

Or how big was the cult in a relative sense? Maybe there is no data.

Unlikely to be any data, but the cult of Serapis was, apparently, very popular with the masses (also stated in two references above)

Are there any statistics on how the (temples) architecture of these cults was distributed around the cities of the Roman Empire in antiquity?

I dunno.

Rodney Stark, in Cities of God has the following sociological data;

Hypothesis: The more hellenized a city was, the more likely it was to be receptive of Isiacism.

• Three-fourths of the Hellenic cities had Isiac temples as of the year 100 CE.

Hypothesis: Port cities, with their constant flow of foreigners, were more receptive to Isiacism than inland cities.

• Nearly all of the port cities had Isiac temples, while two-thirds of the inland cities did not.

Hypothesis: Cities with Isiac temples had Christian churches sooner than cities without Isiac temples.

• Nearly two-thirds of cities having an Isiac temple had a Christian church by 100 CE, and all of them did by 180 CE.

Put another way, even though there were at least six million Jews in the empire, what counted most as the Christian numbers mounted was not cultural continuity with Judaism, but cultural continuity with paganism! And it was here that Isiacism played a most significant role. Not only had many Greco-Romans participated in Isiacism, but by early in the Christian era most of them must have been familiar with the following key elements of her faith: even if Isiacism was not fully realized monotheism, at least it asserted the existence of a supreme creator-God; devotees of Isis accepted the idea of resurrection and something closely akin to an immaculate conception; and Isiacism promised a form of life after death far more attractive than had been typical of prior paganism. In all these ways Isiacism prepared the way for Christianity by making many elements of Christianity comfortably familiar to pagans.

[MrMacSon]

Rodney Stark, in Cities of God has the following sociological data;

Hypothesis: The more hellenized a city was, the more likely it was to be receptive of Isiacism.

• Three-fourths of the Hellenic cities had Isiac temples as of the year 100 CE.

Hypothesis: Port cities, with their constant flow of foreigners, were more receptive to Isiacism than inland cities.

• Nearly all of the port cities had Isiac temples, while two-thirds of the inland cities did not.

Cheers, arnoldo.

Isiacism was popular with sailors, or more readily spread via sea-travel around the Mediterranean in those times-

• Egyptian cults of Isis and Serapis in Roman Fleets Proceedings of the First International Conference for Young Egyptologists (Chianciano Terme, 15-18 October 2003), Roma 2005: 241-253.

This is interesting -

Hypothesis: Cities with Isiac temples had Christian churches sooner than cities without Isiac temples.

• Nearly two-thirds of cities having an Isiac temple had a Christian church by 100 CE, and all of them did by 180 CE.

As is this

... even though there were at least six million Jews in the empire, what counted most - as the Christian numbers mounted - was not cultural continuity with Judaism, but cultural continuity with paganism! And it was here that Isiacism played a most significant role. Not only had many Greco-Romans participated in Isiacism but, by early in the Christian era, most of them must have been familiar with the following key elements of her faith:

• even if Isiacism was not fully realized monotheism, at least it asserted the existence of a supreme creator-God;
  devotees of Isis accepted the idea of resurrection and something closely akin to an immaculate conception; and
  Isiacism promised a form of life after death far more attractive than had been typical of prior paganism.

In all these ways Isiacism prepared the way for Christianity by making many elements of Christianity comfortably familiar to pagans.

[Leucius Charinus]

Rodney Stark, in Cities of God has the following sociological data;

Hypothesis: The more hellenized a city was, the more likely it was to be receptive of Isiacism.

• Three-fourths of the Hellenic cities had Isiac temples as of the year 100 CE.

Hypothesis: Port cities, with their constant flow of foreigners, were more receptive to Isiacism than inland cities.

• Nearly all of the port cities had Isiac temples, while two-thirds of the inland cities did not.

Does Stark provide the archaeological citations for the Isiac temples? If so, what is his source?
It would be interesting to create a map of the pagan temple networks in the Christians Origin epoch.

Thanks for this reference arnaldo.

Hypothesis: Cities with Isiac temples had Christian churches sooner than cities without Isiac temples.

• Nearly two-thirds of cities having an Isiac temple had a Christian church by 100 CE, and all of them did by 180 CE.

Does Stark provide the archaeological citations for the Christian churches? If so, what is his source?
Don't worry about that arnaldo. Stark's only source is Acts.



LC

[MrMacSon]

Rodney Stark, in Cities of God has the following sociological data;

Hypothesis: The more hellenized a city was, the more likely it was to be receptive of Isiacism.

• Three-fourths of the Hellenic cities had Isiac temples as of the year 100 CE.

Hypothesis: Port cities, with their constant flow of foreigners, were more receptive to Isiacism than inland cities.

• Nearly all of the port cities had Isiac temples, while two-thirds of the inland cities did not.

Thanks arnaldo.

Does Stark provide the archaeological citations for the Isiac temples? If so, what is his source?

Wikipedia gives some citations

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapeum#Serapea_in_Italy
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapeum#Serapea_in_Turkey

Hypothesis: Cities with Isiac temples had Christian churches sooner than cities without Isiac temples.

• Nearly two-thirds of cities having an Isiac temple had a Christian church by 100 CE, and all of them did by 180 CE.

Does Stark provide the archaeological citations for the Christian churches? If so, what is his source?

LC

Good question - I was not aware of any archaeological records for Christian churches before the 4th or 5th century (see next post ->).

re

Don't worry about that arnaldo. Stark's only source is Acts.

see over page ...