The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8629
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Peter Kirby »

Basilides (ca. 130) knew the Gospel of Luke:

viewtopic.php?p=169178#p169178

According to Justin, Marcion was alive ca. 150-155 when he was writing.

viewtopic.php?p=169152#p169152
And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works.

Marcion is the author of the Antitheses, and Marcion was active in the first half of the second century.

Against Marcion drew on the Antitheses. In Against Marcion 4.4, it is written:

For if the Gospel, said to be Luke's which is current among us (we shall see whether it be also current with Marcion), is the very one which, as Marcion argues in his Antitheses, was interpolated by the defenders of Judaism, for the purpose of such a conglomeration with it of the law and the prophets as should enable them out of it to fashion their Christ, surely he could not have so argued about it, unless he had found it (in such a form).

There are a few possibilities:

(1) No statement on this topic whatsoever goes back to the Antitheses.
(2) A statement about Luke's gospel doesn't go back to the Antitheses.
(3) A statement about Luke's gospel does go back to the Antitheses, but both Luke and the Gospel used by Marcion were too old for Marcion to know anything about the composition of either.
(4) A statement about Luke's gospel does go back to the Antitheses, and Marcion's Gospel was his own.
(5) A statement about Luke's gospel does go back to the Antitheses, Luke's gospel was recent, and Marcion knew about its origin.

Concerning which:

I find (1) hard to accept, partly because of the new evidence from Origen's Homilies on Psalms and my perusal of Origen's other work. Origen's knowledge of Marcion, concern for refuting Marcion, and vast learning argues strongly that Origen read the Antitheses, similar to how Origen likely read Basilides, Heracleon, and others also. Origen says that Marcion believed there were interpolations in the texts that would be accepted as scripture (including the gospels): viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11986

(2) is possible. It's possible that a statement about "the Gospel" being interpolated goes back to Marcion's Antitheses but that Marcion said nothing specifically on Luke. This is how I used to read it. However, if Luke was pre-130, then this raises the likelihood that Marcion knew Luke. And if Marcion knew Luke, then Marcion would know how much material is common with the gospel he used, making it ripe for comment. If (2) is true (which I consider possible but now don't consider likely), and if Marcion's statement in the Antitheses on the topic didn't include Luke, then Luke was probably unknown to Marcion when he was writing Antitheses.

(3) is plausible. Perhaps both the Gospel that Marcion used and Luke went back to the first century or very early in the second. If (3) is true, then Marcion is not the author of the Gospel that he used, but the literary relationship between the two is unclear.

(4) is possible, but it does not seem very plausible. If Marcion were the author of the Gospel, then on this possibility, by pointing out the so-called interpolations in the known gospels that were previously received, he would be in effect advertising the way that the created his new text by editing the existing ones for speculative restoration of the Gospel. Such a thing would be without parallel in the second century. It would run counter to the implicit goal of winning support for the antiquity of such a new Gospel, which is why most other second century gospels don't do this and simply claim authorship by an apostle.

(5) is more than plausible. If Luke's creation was during the lifetime of Marcion, then it's probable that Marcion would know that the Gospel of Luke was not an ancient text. Given the long life of Marcion as suggested by Justin and Clement, he was in a position to know. The other most plausible alternative is (3), according to which Luke and the gospel that he used were written too long ago for Marcion to know.

In short, I would consider that it's most plausible or likely that:

(3) Both Luke and the gospel that Marcion used were written too early for Marcion to know when either were written.
or
(5) Luke was written recently, during the lifetime of Marcion, and Marcion knew that.

It's also possible (within the margin of a "reasonable doubt") that:

(2) The Antitheses didn't actually say anything about Luke (but see above), which would be most likely in the case that Luke was unknown to Marcion when writing the Antitheses.
(4) Marcion knew that his gospel was recently created and used Luke despite his comments in the Antitheses (but see above).
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Secret Alias »

Antitheses = Matthew 5:17 - 44. Look at Irenaeus's statements about Marcion's use of these antitheses. In their Matthean form they are obviously watered down from a Marcionite-like source text.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8629
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:45 pm Antitheses = Matthew 5:17 - 44. Look at Irenaeus's statements about Marcion's use of these antitheses. In their Matthean form they are obviously watered down from a Marcionite-like source text.
I have a hypothesis here that the Antitheses of Marcion more or less directly took a couple of these from the Gospel, given that they are so apposite. If you want, you could say that they were Jesus' antitheses. There was a longer text by that title attributed to Marcion. I think Origen read it, Irenaeus read it, etc. It was the primary literary target of the anti-Marcion polemic. It was very popular because it provided a justification for demiurgist ideas, which meant that both Marcionites and non-Marcionites (who used other gospels but were demiurgists) would be keen to have a copy. So I think it had relatively wide circulation (more so than the gospel itself used by Marcionites) and was a written text attributed to Marcion. I'm also not discounting what you are seeing there but have a different interpretation of the implications. The Antitheses of Marcion were more extensive and threatening as literature, more explicitly demiurgist and more of a frontal assault on competing views, than Jesus' antitheses.
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1368
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Ken Olson »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:10 pm There are a few possibilities:

(1) No statement on this topic whatsoever goes back to the Antitheses.
(2) A statement about Luke's gospel doesn't go back to the Antitheses.
(3) A statement about Luke's gospel does go back to the Antitheses, but both Luke and the Gospel used by Marcion were too old for Marcion to know anything about the composition of either.
(4) A statement about Luke's gospel does go back to the Antitheses, and Marcion's Gospel was his own.
(5) A statement about Luke's gospel does go back to the Antitheses, Luke's gospel was recent, and Marcion knew about its origin.

Concerning which:

(4) is possible, but it does not seem very plausible. If Marcion were the author of the Gospel, then on this possibility, by pointing out the so-called interpolations in the known gospels that were previously received, he would be in effect advertising the way that the created his new text by editing the existing ones for speculative restoration of the Gospel. Such a thing would be without parallel in the second century. It would run counter to the implicit goal of winning support for the antiquity of such a new Gospel, which is why most other second century gospels don't do this and simply claim authorship by an apostle.
On hypothesis (4), Marcion would come close to admitting that the Evangelion he used was derived from the known text of canonical Luke, with the passages he perceived to be later interpolations removed in order to restore what he thought to be the original text of the gospel.

But you contend that we can reject that hypothesis because it is not plausible to think that a second century writer would be that forthcoming about the origin of the gospel text he used or his own role in it?

I do not find hypothesis (4), or Marcion's relative honesty, nearly as hard to accept as you seem to.

Best,

Ken
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8629
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Peter Kirby »

It's one thing for Marcion to say 'this was the original, that was an interpolation' when he does not know.

It's another thing if Marcion originated the gospel text and wanted it to be accepted. In that case, transparency is unexpected.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Secret Alias »

What's the single most cited line in Marcionite literature?
Hint. It's not even from Luke.
Matthew 5:17.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1368
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Ken Olson »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:14 pm What's the single most cited line in Marcionite literature?
Hint. It's not even from Luke.
Matthew 5:18.
May we have the citations, please?
rgprice
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by rgprice »

What I've long thought to be the case, and maybe I've been wrong, was that the relationship between Marcion and Luke was surmised based on comparison. Nothing in the works of Marcion stated explicitly that he knew anything about Luke or that there was any relationship between his Gospel and Luke. My presumption has been that the attribution of the Gospel to "Luke" could only be possible within the context of Acts of the Apostles.

I do not think that "Luke" in canonical form ever existed independently. It was produced at the same time that canonical Acts of the Apostles was produced. The writing of Luke 1-2 & 24 has to have been done in conjunction with Acts. The writing of Acts of the Apostles has to have been done with knowledge of a Pauline letter collection.

My view is that the writer of canonical Acts used a preexisting account of the ministry of Paul. The pre-existing account was written to go along with a Pauline letter collection like the one Marcion used, starting with Galatians. The original account of Paul's ministry would have been written by someone who not only knew the original order of the Pauline letters, chronologically, but who was writing the narrative to go along with the chronologically ordered collection. It was a companion piece to narrative the reader through the letter collection.

But the canonical Pauline letters are not in this order. However it doesn't matter because the writer of canonical Acts was basing his Pauline story off of the earlier version of the story that was written by someone who was working from the original order of the letters.

Now, what all this leads me to is that surely the answer here is that Luke was written after Marcion. Maybe #5 or maybe Luke was written after Marcion was dead. Canonical Luke is very late to the game. Acts is the give away. I doubt very seriously that any Gospel was ever associated with "Luke" independently of canonical Acts.

But I do think that what we call the Gospel of Mark did originally extend into the material that is now a part of Acts 15-24. How exactly that material ended up being associated whit Luke and not with Mark I don't know. But I'm quite sure that the earliest form of any Gospel was a story that extended all the way from the appearance of John the Baptist and Jesus to the trial of Paul, with Jesus being revealed to Paul after his death. How exactly the first half of that story got separated from the rest, and how "Luke" "reclaimed it" is an enigma.

But every Gospel we know is not the "original Gospel" because the original Gospel did not end with the burial of Jesus, it ended with the "escape" of Paul to Rome. Somehow when someone created "Mark" by copying away only the first half of the story, that shortened version of the story became the popular one that everything else was derived from. That the second half of the story got rescued by "Luke" in Acts of the Apostles is a "miracle".
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Secret Alias »

Aduersus Marcionem (15)

1 23 § 4 (p.465, l.9) BP1
4 2 § 2 (p.547, l.16) BP1
4 6 § 4 (p.553, l.9) BP1
4 7 § 4 (p.554, l.22) BP1
4 7 § 4 (p.554, l.23 - *) BP1
4 9 § 10 (p.560, l.5) BP1
4 9 § 15 (p.561, l.8) BP1
4 16 § 5 (p.582, l.22) BP1
4 22 § 11 (p.603, l.1) BP1
4 33 § 9 (p.634, l.22) BP1
4 36 § 6 (p.644, l.4) BP1
4 39 § 17 (p.655, l.1) BP1
4 39 § 19 (p.655, l.25) BP1
4 42 § 6 (p.660, l.23) BP1
5 14 § 14 (p.708, l.20) BP1

De carne Christi

7 § 11 (p.889, l.66) BP1

De recta in Deum fide (3)

VAN DE SANDE BAKHUYZEN W.H., GCS 4 (1901).
(p.88, l.30) BP2
(p.88, l.31 - <) BP2
(p.94, l.1) BP2

The fictitious dialogue involving Adamantius (De Recta in Deum Fide, ca. 300 CE) depicts a Marcionite quoting Jn 13:34 and 15:19 and accuses the Marcionites of corrupting Mt 5:17 (2.16, 18, 20).

Panarion 34-64 (4)

HOLL K., GCS 31 (1922), 5-210 ; 215-524.
42 11 § 17 (p.125, l.18 - <) BP4
42 11 § 17 (p.148, l.23) BP4
42 11 § 17 (p.151, l.25 - <) BP4
42 12 § 3 (p.170, l.11) BP4

How could all these sources have all misidentified Marcion as corrupting Matthew 5:17? They all go back to one source. They never had the Marcionite gospel.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8629
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: The Antitheses and the origin of Luke

Post by Peter Kirby »

rgprice wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:39 pm What I've long thought to be the case, and maybe I've been wrong, was that the relationship between Marcion and Luke was surmised based on comparison. Nothing in the works of Marcion stated explicitly that he knew anything about Luke or that there was any relationship between his Gospel and Luke. My presumption has been that the attribution of the Gospel to "Luke" could only be possible within the context of Acts of the Apostles.

I do not think that "Luke" in canonical form ever existed independently. It was produced at the same time that canonical Acts of the Apostles was produced. The writing of Luke 1-2 & 24 has to have been done in conjunction with Acts. The writing of Acts of the Apostles has to have been done with knowledge of a Pauline letter collection.
If Luke (in "canonical form") was written pre-130, then Marcion probably did know about Luke and Acts.

If Luke was still written recently enough in the second century, Marcion could have known that.

A conclusion that Luke ripped off the gospel with "interpolations" didn't really require much comparison, since that was the way that Marcion viewed the other gospels including Matthew.

An allegation against Luke in particular could be explained because it was the most recent synoptic.

Of course, the OP also mentions the "Marcion never knew about Luke" idea (i.e. number 2, which I also used to think... and rejects it). And the OP mentions the "all these gospels are older" idea (3), in which case Marcion had no special knowledge about Luke.

But what if Marcion was around when Luke and Acts were being composed?
Post Reply