Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Re: Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:18 am It would explain (sort of) the "naked man with naked man" error
The Secret Gospel:

We have stories of rabbis who gave obscure answers and then explained the true ones in private to their disciples. (p. 84)

Therefore he pretended that Jesus had taught them privately. (p. 85)

Even his disciples are said to have misunderstood and to have asked him privately for explanations. (p. 86)

This new understanding of the early Christian group and its private practices explained a great deal that had been puzzling in early Christianity, but it also raised new problems. (p. 115)

Another trace of the secret Gospel probably appears in the work of a gnostic named Theodotus who wrote in Egypt during the 160’s: Clement quoted from him a report that Jesus taught the disciples, "at first by examples and by stories with hidden meanings, then by parables and by enigmas, but in the third stage, clearly and nakedly, in private.” (p. 142)

Clement of Alexandria

"It is precisely from these apostles and Paul that Clement claims his teachers had received, evidently by private tradition, and handed on to him the essential teachings of the Lord." (p. 29)

"This must have influenced the way Christians looked for their own **philosophy" from the beginning, and every new, private interpretation given by individual Christians or gnostics could be justified only by saying that it was not to be found in the previous tradition of the Church because it had been kept secret." (p. 38)

"... comparing his private excerpts from Theodotus with his attacks on the Valentinians in the Stromateis; ... "this whole complex of concerns—the inner circle of higher initiates, the secret apostolic tradition, the opposition of gnosis to mere faith, and so on—is overshadowed by questions of church discipline and organization. ... (pp. 80, 81)

"In the battle over gnosticism which raged throughout the second century and reached its climax at Clement's time, private letters played an important role." (p. 81)

"Finally, the Carpocratian version of the secret Gospel had an account of Jesus’ teaching a favored disciple the mystery of the kingdom of God privately and γυμνὸς γυμνῷ." (pp. 83-84)

There you have it.
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Re: Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

Post by Peter Kirby »

It seems that Smith's own interest in private teaching would have led him to like the singular reading.
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Re: Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

Post by Secret Alias »

In my revised screenplay I play this up. How did Smith read this as singular naked man:

Image

I brought this up on the video I made with Jacob Berman. These are Smith's own photos. No one saw these until 2006 and even then they rarely referenced. Forget about the specific ligature for nun-omicron-iota. The iota looks less like a sigma than in the color photos. How did Smith come to the conclusion this was a sigma?
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Re: Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

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Maybe talking with Goranson every day has rubbed off on me but I am open to accusing Smith of "making the weaker argument stronger" for a specific agenda. It's at least possible. The iota with the accent looks nothing like a sigma. It looks exactly like the left leaning iotas in the rest of the manuscript. What gives then with this being "naked man with naked man"? I keep telling you no one likes me. No one among the forgery camp and ESPECIALLY the authenticity camp. WASPs are into falling in line behind the leader. My son has that problem with his varsity soccer team. They have ECNL player of the year as the 10 and my son doesn't give a fuck about reputation (he has me as his Dad). Can't get along with any of his teammates because it is just assumed that the pecking order has been established. Poor boy. Going to be a hard life. Like Nietzsche in the Monty Python skit arguing with everyone.
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Re: Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

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Secret Alias wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:44 am ESPECIALLY the authenticity camp
Why?
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Re: Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

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Oh God. It started with that York University conference. I went to York. I want to the bilingual campus Glendon https://protem.journals.yorku.ca/index. ... 5583/14509 but still I thought of York as my school. I met Steve Mason there. I don't know why but I thought I had the right to tell them to bring Tselikas. Very stupid and out of line. But you know looking at the papers I thought stupid papers, same old same old. Let's bring something new.

I think the authenticity camp saw this as something of an evening the score with those SBL conferences that were blatant tar and feather Morton Smith so when they saw that Tselikas was "pro-forgery" they didn't invite him. Whatever. Maybe he wouldn't have gone. But they didn't like me from then.

Also there was this canonization of Scott Brown (in the way Stephen Carlson was made a jihadist for forgery) which I didn't respect. I mean. He's Canadian. Canadians are so fucking boring. He's good scholar but I don't know something about him rubbed me the wrong way. It's like my son on the varsity soccer team. They have this canonized saint "Oh he was ECNL player of the year." He's not that great. I mean if someone is Messi I understand worship Messi. But you need I guess we're not great team players.

Like the Marcionists hate me too. I am serious. First it was Helmut the frog or whatever his name was. Detering. He told me I was no longer a Marcionist and he took down my article on Polycarp from his website because I had a child. I swear to God. And maybe because I said Marcionite studies is bullshit.
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Re: Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

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Secret Alias wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:16 am First it was Helmut the frog or whatever his name was.
Helmut Koester? He said something to you?

I guess you mean Hermann (Detering).
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Re: Greek Monks Who Thought the Letter to Theodore was in the Mar Saba Monastery Before Morton Smith Arrives

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Glendon was full of beautiful ladies. Seriously. I only went there because the prettiest girl at my high school was going there. She was Finnish. But it was like Electric Ladyland. Like beautiful women from every continent. Met my wife there. No way I could have gotten someone of her quality today. Just was just young and naive. The stock market of romance. Values going up and down. Mostly down.
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