The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

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JarekS
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The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

Post by JarekS »

Yahweh was one of the sons of El Elyon; and Jesus in the Gospels was described as a Son of El Elyon, God Most High. In other words, he was described as a heavenly being. Thus the annunciation narrative has the term ‘Son of the Most High’ (Luke 1:32) and the demoniac recognized his exorcist as ‘Son of the Most High God’ (Mark 5:7). Jesus is not called the son of Yahweh nor the son of the Lord, but he is called Lord. We also know that whoever wrote the New Testament translated the name Yahweh by Kyrios, Lord … This suggests that the Gospel writers, in using the terms ‘Lord’ and ‘Son of God Most High’, saw Jesus as an angel figure, and gave him their version of the sacred name Yahweh. M.Barker
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

Post by GakuseiDon »

JarekS wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:24 pm Yahweh was one of the sons of El Elyon; and Jesus in the Gospels was described as a Son of El Elyon, God Most High. In other words, he was described as a heavenly being.
Isn't "son of God" also used in a spiritual sense in the NT? For example, in the Gospel of John:

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
...
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Also Paul in Romans:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
...
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

JarekS
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

Post by JarekS »

The possible interpretations may be numerous and contradictory. Jesus may be the son of El Elyon, he may be the son of YHWH. Literally or spiritually. All anti-Marcion literature is a deliberate imposition of selected interpretations and not a depiction of Marcion's real views, which we simply do not know.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

Post by GakuseiDon »

JarekS wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2024 6:32 pm The possible interpretations may be numerous and contradictory. Jesus may be the son of El Elyon, he may be the son of YHWH. Literally or spiritually.
I think there is also the question of timing. If Christianity started from a Jewish context, then "son of God" probably was a term that didn't mean a literal descendant of God. But as it transformed into a Gentile movement, it started to take on that kind of meaning.
JarekS
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

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Christianity is a movement originating from Hellenistic Judaism, from the beginning aimed at gentiles. And Jewish tradition often serves as hostile propaganda towards competition within the movement. In Bar Kokkhba's time, the earlier definition of God could be contested.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

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Most High = Ὑψίστου

Of its eight uses in the NT, five are in Luke (with three of those five being in Luke 1: in vv. 32, 35 and 76; and one in each of Luke 6:35 and 8:28); one in each of Acts 16:17 and Hebrews 7:1; and, as noted, in Mark 5:7).

ὑψίστοις = 'in the highest' is in Mark 11:1, Matthew 21:9, and Luke 2:14 and 19:38.

In her 2016 book, Luke's Christology of Divine Identity, Nina Henrichs-Tarasenkova noted,
... in the LXX, ὕψους is understood as the place of YHWH’s habitation, from which YHWH looks on his people with favor and delivers them (eg., 2 Sam. 22.17; Ps. 18.16 [17.17, LXX]) rather than a place from which the Davidic messiah comes.

This understanding of ὕψους is familiar to Luke for he speaks [elsewhere] of YHWH’s Spirit coming from heaven as ‘the power from on high’ (ἐξ ὕψους δύναμιν, Lk. 24.49; cf. 3.21-22).


In relation to the anatolē from on high - ἀνατολὴ ἐξ ὕψους - in Luke 1:78, she notes,
By claiming that ἀνατολὴ comes from the unique place of YHWH’s habitation,44 ie., ὕψους, Luke not only identifies Jesus as the Davidic messiah but also reinterprets this designation in light of Jesus’ unique relationship to YHWH—a relationship that was established through the Holy Spirit, ie., the power from on high, who came down upon Mary (Lk 1.35; cf. Acts 1.8) and enabled her to conceive. Luke thus emphasizes that Jesus’ identity should be derived from the divine identity of YHWH rather than from the identity of David’s descendant Joseph ...

44 Johnson, Luke, p. 47, states: ‘“From on high” means simply “from God”.’ NTH: "... the expression ἐξ ὕψους is never used of YHWH himself but of YHWH’s place of habitation (Sir. 16.17), from which he sends help (2 Sam. 22.17; Pss. 18.16 [17.17, LXX]; 144.7 [143.7, LXX]) or judgment (Lam. 1.13) ..."

And that,
... in his description of Jesus’ function, [Luke echoes] OT passages that identify the one who brings light, peace, and, therefore, salvation with YHWH himself (Isa. 42.6-7; Ps. 107.10-14) or with one who is more than a mere Davidide (Isa. 9.6-7) ... readers are encouraged to see Jesus as the Davidic Messiah whose identity is derived from the divine identity of YHWH himself ...
JarekS
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

Post by JarekS »

Early Christians in the era of the Kitos Wars and the Bar Kokhba uprising separated God from the Jews in two ways. Or that the God of the Jews is a minor demiurge. Or that the God of the Jews is the only God that the Jews did not understand
dbz
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

Post by dbz »

JarekS wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:41 am Early Christians . . . separated God from the Jews...
Who were the first christ devotees and did they honor a power/son/redeemer of the ONE?
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MrMacSon
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

Post by MrMacSon »

JarekS wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:41 am Early Christians in the era of the Kitos Wars and the Bar Kokhba uprising separated God from the Jews in two ways. Or that the God of the Jews is a minor demiurge. Or that the God of the Jews is the only God that the Jews did not understand
dbz wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 12:36 pm Who were the first christ devotees and did they honor a power/son/redeemer of the ONE?
I think scholarship on this has a way to go, but the most significant current scholarship might well be M David Litwa's books:
  • Iesus Deus: The Early Christian Depiction of Jesus as a Mediterranean God
  • The Evil Creator: Origins of an Early Christian Idea
  • Carpocrates, Marcellina, and Epiphanes: Three Early Christian Teachers of Alexandria and Rome
  • Early Christianity in Alexandria: From its Beginnings to the Late Second Century
  • Found Christianities: Remaking the World of the Second Century CE
  • Simon of Samaria and the Simonians: Contours of an Early Christian Movement
  • The Naassenes: Exploring an Early Christian Identity
  • Desiring Divinity: Self-deification in Early Jewish and Christian Mythmaking
lsayre
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Re: The gospel writers saw Jesus as an angel figure, gave him a version of the name Yahweh

Post by lsayre »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:06 pm
Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
...
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Would not all kings of the Jews inherently be called a son of God? Isn't that what kings from any nation at the time carried as attribution?
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