Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

[John2]

My guess is that the author of Luke/Acts knew Josephus and incorporated his "bad" guy magician Simon into his work, the same way they incorporated the "bad" guys Theudas and Judas the Galilean. Theudas and Judas remain "bad" guys in Acts and so does Simon.

In a sense it’s silly to be talking about how a fictional character’s story goes on, after that author has stopped writing about him

Kind of like asking whether Sherlock Holmes turned to the dark side.

Well, but if he was Josephus' magician Simon, then he was a real person, like Theudas and Judas the Galilean.

[RandyHelzerman]

Well, but if he was Josephus' magician Simon, then he was a real person, like Theudas and Judas the Galilean.

If.

Reminds me of what the Spartans told Philip of Macedon, when he sent a message to the Spartans, "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

The Spartans sent back a single word reply: "If"

*chuckle* but lets, for the sake of discussion, stipulate that he *was* the person Josephus wrote about. What does Josephus tell us happened to Simon Magus after he asked Peter to pray for him? What? Josephus doesn't mention Peter praying for him? Maybe the whole thing didn't happen.

[John2]

Well, but if he was Josephus' magician Simon, then he was a real person, like Theudas and Judas the Galilean.

If.

Reminds me of what the Spartans told Philip of Macedon, when he sent a message to the Spartans, "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

The Spartans sent back a single word reply: "If"

*chuckle* but lets, for the sake of discussion, stipulate that he *was* the person Josephus wrote about. What does Josephus tell us happened to Simon Magus after he asked Peter to pray for him? What? Josephus doesn't mention Peter praying for him? Maybe the whole thing didn't happen.

It's enough for me that Josephus paints the magician Simon as a "bad" person (the same way he paints Theudas and Judas the Galilean as "bad" people), whose influence resulted in a bad ending. Likewise Theudas and Judas have band endings in Josephus and Acts, so I am comfortable with assuming Simon is a bad person and has a bad ending in Acts, the one that Peter wanted him to have.

[John2]

Another way to look at it (assuming Josephus' Simon is the same as the one in Acts) is that anyone who knew Josephus (like the I assume the author of Acts did) would know that this Simon was a nefarious person. Do you suppose (in this scenario) that Acts intended to change Simon's image (to no avail), that Simon was really a good guy (and thus that Marcionism has a solid apostolic foundation)?

[RandyHelzerman]

It's enough for me that Josephus paints the magician Simon as a "bad" person (the same way he paints

I'm just glad *my* name isn't Simon.

[RandyHelzerman]

Another way to look at it (assuming Josephus' Simon is the same as the one in Acts)

Assuming pigs had wings, they could fly.

John2, do you believe Acts is history? That every episode it talks about actually happened, as written?

[John2]

Another way to look at it (assuming Josephus' Simon is the same as the one in Acts)

Assuming pigs had wings, they could fly.

John2, do you believe Acts is history? That every episode it talks about actually happened, as written?

I do think Acts is history, but I look at it this way. As an old website I enjoy puts it, "In ancient times historians routinely, unashamedly, got their quotations by making them up. Our Bible, our New Testament, is a product of its culture. It includes stuff—direct, verbatim quotations—that it's authors made up. Stuff that didn't really happen" (https://www.pocm.info/pagan_ideas_phony_quotes.html).

So do I think every word that Peter and Simon say in Acts 8 actually happened? No, and as the website explains, the author of Acts (like other ancient historians) surely didn't think so either. But do I think Simon Magus actually existed? Yes, as much as I do the other people that Josephus and Acts mention. And it doesn't seem implausible to me if this Simon interacted with Christians, seeing that they all lived in the same place and were active at the same time.

[RandyHelzerman]

it doesn't seem implausible to me if this Simon interacted with Christians,

In Acts, he *was* a Christian.

seeing that they all lived in the same place and were active at the same time.

They all lived a few blocks away from the Temple in Jerusalem? I think the woman at the well would find it strange if you said they all lived in the same area.

Isn't this whole discussion kind of like asking "who would win in a fight? Goliath, or Sampson? Its starting to sound like the endless conversations my kids have about Comic books...."Who would win in a fight? Spiderman, or the Wonder Woman?"

[John2]

it doesn't seem implausible to me if this Simon interacted with Christians,

In Acts, he *was* a Christian.

He became a Christian, by interacting with Christians.

seeing that they all lived in the same place and were active at the same time.

They all lived a few blocks away from the Temple in Jerusalem? I think the woman at the well would find it strange if you said they all lived in the same area.

By the same place I mean "the Land of Israel."

[RandyHelzerman]

He became a Christian, by interacting with Christians.

As this was the first generation of Christians, they *all* became christians by interacting with Christians!

By the same place I mean "the Land of Israel."

When you say "the Land of Israel" I wonder if you are having a similar experience as Elaine Pagels talks about when she went to school--how disappointed she was that she didn't find what one of her professors called "Play Bible Land." Where fishermen and carpenters enjoyed walking around the peaceful lake of Galilee, surrounded by farmers, who were sowing their wheat, or tending their vineyards and olive trees...on the hillsides, the sheep could safely graze, tended by good shepherds....the Romans are bumbling but benign rulers...the centurions love the Jews so much they build Synagogues for them out of own pocket....and Pilate would have *never* crucified Jesus if it hadn't been for that jewish mob, because he gave Jesus a fair trial and found that he did nothing wrong....

By the time Jesus beamed down to Capharnaum, there hadn't been any place called "Israel" for about 7 centuries!!! The region of Galilee was never part of the territory that the 12 tribes of Israel were said to occupy in the OT. Neither was the region of Idumea. If Jesus actually lived, he might not even have ethnically been a Jew--him being from Galilee and all.

There was incredible tension between the romans and the jews....with revolutionaries and messiahs appearing like clockwork. It might have been like Josephus described it, but it was nothing like the Gospels describe it. Pilate was specifically mentioned by Philo as a cruel, unjust, and arbitrary ruler....centurians were enforcers with a gang of 100 brownshirts who did not hesitate to quash any hint of opposition to Caesar.

Judea in the 1st Century was nothing like the OT. And if you read the OT carefully....you'll find there's no Judaism there!!! They had no synagogues, no rabbis, no schools like the phrases or essines. Everybody from David on down kept household idols. Heck most of them didn't even worship YHWH--there were ashore poles and groves in high places all over. And the vast majority of ones who *did* worship YHWH also worshiped other gods--even the likes of David and Soloman. The only monotheists were a bunch of annoying prophets going around stirring up trouble. They were all like the Saducees, in that they didn't believe in life after death.

Fast-forward to the NT. Synagogues in every city. Strict monotheism was universal. Not an ashore pole, not a single grove in high places, no sacrifice to any other god was tolerated.---No household idols---and the citizens were so dedicated to their God that they were borderline fanatical, to the point of creating tremendous friction with the Romans. And, while there were some sadducees left, the religion had become so hellenized and mixed with greek philosophy that most people believed in the afterlife. It was a completely different religions and a completely different cultural and symbolic world.