Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13979
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:20 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:51 pm I think that "doubtless" in the Jesus's answer is a strong clue pointing to an explanation found inside the story itself of the gospel of Luke, not assumed a priori external to that gospel (i.e. possibly in Mark).
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:02 pm "Doubtless" in Jesus's answer explains also why *Ev were to choose one city to begin with, even before that the name of the city ("Capernaum") was mentioned.
This is a non-sequitur. What is the antecedent for Luke 10.13 ( = Matt 11.21): “Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes" where either city is explicitly named as having been a place where Jesus performed might works?

Best,

Ken
it is not at all a non-sequitur and I explain why:

As to Chorazin and Bethsaida, none gospel gives, to my knowledge, an explanation of what happened between Jesus and these cities. But in the case of Capernaum we have indeed a gospel (*Ev) where the connection of Capernaum with a Jesus's miracle is explained before 4:23, hence of course the comparison is fully justified, between Luke and *Ev, in order to realize who of them gives the best explanation of Luke 4:23.

In other words, if we had a gospel where an explanation is given explicitly for the Jesus's hatred against Chorazin and Bethsaida, then ipso facto I would conclude rationally and probably for a such gospel preceding both *Ev and Matthew and Luke.

You can't ignore the explicit character of flash-back in Luke 4:23, and the interesting emphasis "doubtless" that refers probably the reader to something already described ad hoc in the story itself and not outside of it, in a previous source.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13979
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken, one of the reasons Secret Mark can persuade about its authenticity is that it gives a detailed explanation about what Jesus went to do in Jericho (an explanation that is absent in Mark).
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2973
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by maryhelena »

Capernaum and Marcion

Post by maryhelena » Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:46 pm

While both the gospel attributed to Marcion and the gospel of Luke make reference to the 15th year of Tiberius, Marcion's gospel has his Jesus coming down to Capernaum in that year. The gospel of Matthew says of Jesus: Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, (Matthew 4:13)

3. 1 In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, when
Pilate was governing Judea, 4 31 Jesus came down to
Capharnaum, a city of Galilee.

The First New Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon:
Jason D. BeDuhn

Is there anything special about Capernaum? Josephus seems to think so:

8. The country also that lies over against this lake hath the same name of Gennesareth; its nature is wonderful as well as its beauty; its soil is so fruitful that all sorts of trees can grow upon it, and the inhabitants accordingly plant all sorts of trees there; for the temper of the air is so well mixed that it agrees very well with those several sorts, particularly walnuts, which require the coldest air, flourish there in vast plenty; there are palm trees also, which grow best in hot air; fig trees also and olives grow near them, which yet require an air that is more temperate. One may call this place the ambition of nature, where it forces those plants that are naturally enemies to one another to agree together: it is a happy contention of the seasons, as if every one of them laid claim to this country; for it not only nourishes different sorts of autumnal fruit beyond men’s expectation, but preserves them a great while; it supplies men with the principal fruits, with grapes and figs, continually, during ten months of the year, (11) and the rest of the fruits as they become ripe together through the whole year: for besides the good temperature of the air, it is also watered from a most fertile fountain. The people of the country call it Capharnaum. Some have thought it to be a vein of the Nile, because it produces the Coracin fish as well as that lake does which is near to Alexandria. The length of this country extends itself along the banks of this lake that bears the same name, for thirty furlongs, and is in breadth twenty, And this is the nature of that place.

Josephus: War book 3 ch.10

With such talk of water and fountains and wonderful beauty in nature, soil that is fruitful and palm trees and fig and olive trees - this place is the ambition of nature - plants that are natural enemies agree together, a happy contention of the seasons, supplies fruit beyond men’s expectation...Are we not seeing here a vision of Camelot, of Arcadia?

Taking Josephus at his word, that he was not unfamiliar with the prophets etc and had visions and could interpreted them - is he not here dealing with an abstract ideal rather than the geography of the region?

Years later Josephus has a story about falling off his horse and gets taken to Capernaum.

For the horse on which I rode, and upon whose back I fought, fell into a quagmire; and threw me on the ground. And I was bruised on my wrist and carried into a village, named Cepharnome.25 or Capernaum. When my soldiers heard of this, they were afraid I had been worse hurt than I was; and so they did not go on with their pursuit any farther: but returned in very great concern for me. I therefore sent for the physicians: and while I was under their hand, I continued feaverish that day: and, as the physicians directed, I was that night removed to Taricheæ.

Josephus: Life

Capernaum a place of healing, a place that is the ambition of nature. Is this what the author of the gospel attributed to Marcion had in mind when having Jesus descent to this earthly paradise ? A place of comfort, a place of healing.

Maybe this Josephan vision of Arcadia, published in War around 73/74 c.e. might have inspired the writer of Marcion's gospel to have his Jesus come down to Capernaum ? This might place Marcoin's gospel soon after Josephus' War. That years later this gospel fell into the hands of Marcion, or the Marcionites, would indicate it probably had a considerable period of time before the Lukan writer wrote the recap of previous gospels. Yep, gospel stories about Jesus, Pilate and Tiberius developed over time. Updates are not rejection of older versions of the story. Indicating, of course, that the gospel Jesus is a literary figure not a flesh and blood historical figure. Unfortunately, NT scholars still use a historical Jesus bias when confronted with Marcion.

Reading Marcion's, 'Jesus came down to Capernaum', as a literal, flesh and blood journey, sounds strange to the ear - i.e. we use that sort of expression often (i.e. my sister came down to London - from up north somewhere or another). Since Marcion's gospel found no use for birth narratives - perhaps a philosophical approach would better suit his gospel. After all, it's ideas, the Word became flesh, that are given concrete form in order to benefit human progress.

Capernaum as the 'water of life'.....Water that enables life to flourish...Capernaum a place of 'living water'....Little wonder then that the gospel in the hands of Marcion should open with his Jesus coming down to Capernaum.

Methinks, two stories in the gospels - historical reflections plus philosophical aspirations/ideals. The waters of life, 'waters' that flow unstoppable from our intellectual capacity, and the historical reality of life lived on terra-firma.
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 2343
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by GakuseiDon »

maryhelena wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:22 amReading Marcion's, 'Jesus came down to Capernaum', as a literal, flesh and blood journey, sounds strange to the ear - i.e. we use that sort of expression often (i.e. my sister came down to London - from up north somewhere or another). Since Marcion's gospel found no use for birth narratives - perhaps a philosophical approach would better suit his gospel.
Luke also uses the expression, when he writes about Jesus going from the brow of the hill in Nazareth (Luke 4:30) and descending to Capternaum (Luke 4:31):

Luke 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
...
Luke 4:31 And came down [katerchomai] to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

I think that suggests that Marcion is using Luke, and so he followed Luke's wording. It's less likely IMHO that Luke would adopt the same wording as *Ev if "descending to Capernaum" had a supernatural wording. At the least, it may have been why Irenaeus and Tertullian were convinced that Marcion was working from the Gospel of Luke.
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2973
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by maryhelena »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:39 am
maryhelena wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:22 amReading Marcion's, 'Jesus came down to Capernaum', as a literal, flesh and blood journey, sounds strange to the ear - i.e. we use that sort of expression often (i.e. my sister came down to London - from up north somewhere or another). Since Marcion's gospel found no use for birth narratives - perhaps a philosophical approach would better suit his gospel.
Luke also uses the expression, when he writes about Jesus going from the brow of the hill in Nazareth (Luke 4:30) and descending to Capternaum (Luke 4:31):

Luke 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
...
Luke 4:31 And came down [katerchomai] to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

I think that suggests that Marcion is using Luke, and so he followed Luke's wording. It's less likely IMHO that Luke would adopt the same wording as *Ev if "descending to Capernaum" had a supernatural wording. At the least, it may have been why Irenaeus and Tertullian were convinced that Marcion was working from the Gospel of Luke.
As I say in my post - coming down to x is a common expression. Yep, one can take 'coming down literally - but the question still remains. Why Capernaum. The issue regarding Marcion's gospel is that it's Jesus figure comes down to Capernaum. Capernaum needs to be addressed - hence why I quoted Josephus.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13979
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by Giuseppe »

Of course Luke derived from *Ev the idea of a spiritual entity descending on the earth in 3:2:

in the 15° year of Tiberius [...] the word of God descended on John son of Zechariah in the wilderness

The "word of God" is the Logos.
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2973
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by maryhelena »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:57 am Of course Luke derived from *Ev the idea of a spiritual entity descending on the earth in 3:2:

in the 15° year of Tiberius [...] the word of God descended on John son of Zechariah in the wilderness

The "word of God" is the Logos.
The Logos idea comes from Philo.....Logos, mind, ideas - coming down to enable human flesh to flourish.....sounds good to me.

Philo: This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4).31 This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas. (All. 1.19–20) Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp.219-20). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2973
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by maryhelena »

I'm throwing an idea out there in cyber space...

If the gospel in the hand of Marcion is, re Klinghardt, the oldest gospel - was this gospel the first to name the 'wonder-worker- of the Slavonic Josephus story ? If so, Klinghardt would be correct to label the gospel in the hands of Marcion as the oldest gospel i.e. it would be the first Jesus gospel. This gospel could then be viewed as dropping not Luke's birth narrative but the very early birth narrative of Slavonic Josephus. (a birth narrative placed prior to the 15th year of Herod)... - perhaps something to think about......

If so - the implications for Christianity could well be dramatic....
RandyHelzerman
Posts: 535
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:31 am

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by RandyHelzerman »

maryhelena wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:22 am Reading Marcion's, 'Jesus came down to Capernaum', as a literal, flesh and blood journey, sounds strange to the ear
Tertullian glosses this expression more as a Star Trek-style beaming down:
Tertullian Against Marcion 4.7.1-13 wrote: he "came down to the Galilean city of Capernaum," of course meaning from the heaven of the Creator
Marcion wasn't much for metaphor: he interpreted the Septuagint very literally--so he couldn't just allegorize away the ethnic cleansing and such, which led him to reject the God it describes.

So we can imagine him interpreting this sentence just as literally---"came down" doesn't mean going from north to south, or from uptown to downtown. I literally means "came down". He just descended from the sky and sauntered into the local Synagogue to tell them what's what.
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2973
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

Post by maryhelena »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 4:37 am
maryhelena wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:22 am Reading Marcion's, 'Jesus came down to Capernaum', as a literal, flesh and blood journey, sounds strange to the ear
Tertullian glosses this expression more as a Star Trek-style beaming down:
Tertullian Against Marcion 4.7.1-13 wrote: he "came down to the Galilean city of Capernaum," of course meaning from the heaven of the Creator
Marcion wasn't much for metaphor: he interpreted the Septuagint very literally--so he couldn't just allegorize away the ethnic cleansing and such, which led him to reject the God it describes.

So we can imagine him interpreting this sentence just as literally---"came down" doesn't mean going from north to south, or from uptown to downtown. I literally means "came down". He just descended from the sky and sauntered into the local Synagogue to tell them what's what.


My bolding

😂 :cheers:
Post Reply