Implications of Marcion for early Christianity?

[Peter Kirby]

And it is possible to add something else in connection with the statement—as often as it comes up in confronting those who misconstrue Scripture—that I consider appropriate to bring up just as we are dealing with “My people did not hear my voice.” Such- and-such a logos of the Savior has been written in the Gospel according to John: “You have never heard his voice, nor have you seen his form; and you do not have his logos abiding in you, because the one he sent, that one you do not believe.” What is said is unexceptionable and well said. But followers of Valentinus and of Basilides have seized on the wording and say, “Thus he introduces another god besides the god of the law and the prophets. Jesus Christ is speaking against the Jews, to whom the law and the prophets are well known: ‘You have never heard his voice, nor have you seen his form.’ Therefore, the Jews have not heard the genuine God ever at all, the one different from the god of the law, but the Lord Jesus has introduced a new god different from the god of the Jews.”

Origen immediately goes on to say that people often find this persuasive:

A naïve and simple soul heard that it was said, “You have never heard his voice, nor have you seen his form,” and it hears them avowing that the Jews did not see the form of the genuine god (although, in fact, God was seen by Abraham or by Moses), and it goes away and leaves the Church, and it abandons this logos as something stupid. It flees to heresy as if to knowledge and wisdom.

[RandyHelzerman]

Luke 4.14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee, and a report concerning him went out through all the surrounding country.

How should we understand what it means that Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and what the report contained?

Other than Ev priority over Lk---which is to say, my own pet theory that is the best explanation I've ever heard for this aporia. The point about "power" referring to all manifestations of divine power, including healings, is very well taken, I think you make a strong case it shouldn't be limited to just powerful preaching. The verse is a bridge from the temptations in the wilderness to the beginning of his ministry, so sure, it's not a heavy lift to think that it summarizes/foreshadows what Jesus is going to do in Galilee once he gets there.

Its much better than the only other one which comes to mind right now: Dale B. Martin gave a youtube series of lectures, and one point he made was something to the effect that the order was switched because Jesus was against socio-economic inequality.....forgive me if I don't quite remember how that argument goes

Still, if 4:14 is the antecedent, it refers to power in a lot of places--all over Galilee, and the surrounding areas. When Jesus says "Doubtless you will tell me ...'whatever we have heard done at Capharnaum' ...” -- how can Jesus be so doubtless that they will mention Capharnaum--and not Sepphoris, or Tiberias, or even Chorazin and Bethsaida, which (later in the gospel) Jesus explicitly mentions performing miracles in?

(I can hear the voice of my fundie sister saying "Jesus knows what they are going to say because he's a prophet, duh!!!" )

Arguably, Chorazin and Bethsaida would be much better cities to mention, because they provide a much starker contrast, and a much tighter parallel to Nazareth, for Jesus to make his point: they *also* were unbelieving towns, like Nazareth, nevertheless, since they weren't his *hometown*, he could still do miracles there.

I mean, normally I wouldn't get too hung up on a particular word---Caphernaum Schmaphernom, who cares which city he said? But your argument does lean pretty heavily on the hermeneutics of a single word "power", so I'll dare to follow suit. Why wouldn't Jesus have said "like I did everywhere else" or something as generic as the antecedent? If Luke would have just moved the whole episode down a few verses (past where Tertullian tells us is the opening line for the Ev) a singular antecedent would have been supplied. Why is this particular order so important for Luke? (Other than Dr. Martin's explanation! )

[Giuseppe]

. When Jesus says "Doubtless you will tell me ...whatever we have heard done at Capharnaum ...'” -- how can Jesus be so doubtless that they will mention Capharnaum--and not Sepphoris, or Tiberias, or even Chorazin and Bethsaida, which (later in the gospel) Jesus explicitly mentions performing miracles in?

Bravo! Wonderful!

[RandyHelzerman]

Bravo! Wonderful!

*chuckle* you don't think my sister has a point?

[Ken Olson]

Still, if 4:14 is the antecedent, it refers to power in a lot of places--all over Galilee, and the surrounding areas. When Jesus says "Doubtless you will tell me this parable, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we have heard done at Capernaum, do also here in your hometown.’ ” -- how can Jesus be so doubtless that they will mention Capharnaum--and not Sepphoris, or Tiberias, or even Chorazin and Bethsaida, which (later in the gospel) Jesus explicitly mentions performing miracles in? (I can hear the voice of my fundie sister saying "Jesus knows what they are going to say because he's a prophet, duh!!!" )

Well, if Luke were to choose one city in Galilee to mention, it would most likely be Capernaum. I hold the Farrer theory that Mark was the first written gospel, Matthew used Mark as his source, and Luke used both Mark and Matthew. (John came later and used all three). So Capernaum is named three times in Luke's Markan source (four times in Matthew) and would be familiar to Luke.

Sepphoris is never mentioned in the New Testament, Tiberias is mentioned only in John (John 6.23, plus two references to the Sea of Tiberias), Chorazin is mentioned only in Luke 10.13/Matt 11.21, where it's paired with Bethsaida, in a saying I think Luke is taking from Matt 11.21. Bethsaida is mentioned twice in Luke's Markan source (Mark 6.45, 8.22), but it's not in Galilee, it's in Gaulanitis, on the other side of Lake Gennasaret.

The most likely city of Galilee for Luke to choose would be Capernaum.

Best,

Ken

[Giuseppe]

I think that "doubtless" in the Jesus's answer is a strong clue pointing to an explanation found inside the story itself of the gospel of Luke, not assumed a priori external to that gospel (i.e. possibly in Mark).

[Giuseppe]

"Doubtless" in Jesus's answer explains also why *Ev were to choose one city to begin with, even before that the name of the city ("Capernaum") was mentioned.

[Ken Olson]

I think that "doubtless" in the Jesus's answer is a strong clue pointing to an explanation found inside the story itself of the gospel of Luke, not assumed a priori external to that gospel (i.e. possibly in Mark).

"Doubtless" in Jesus's answer explains also why *Ev were to choose one city to begin with, even before that the name of the city ("Capernaum") was mentioned.

This is a non-sequitur. What is the antecedent for Luke 10.13 ( = Matt 11.21): “Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes" where either city is explicitly named as having been a place where Jesus performed might works?

Best,

Ken

[RandyHelzerman]

So Capernaum is named three times in Luke's Markan source (four times in Matthew) and would be familiar to Luke.

Hmmm...I should have thought through the Marcan angle a bit more. Lk got "Capharnaum" (directly or indirectly) from Mk...he got the whole story from Mk. Ergo:

The most likely city of Galilee for Luke to choose would be Capernaum.

Luke *didnt'* choose Capernaum. Capernaum chose him It was a faux pas on my part to even suggest that Luke had a choice here.

Perhaps we're just overthinking it: Luke just copied over the story he found in Mark (or Matthew, or heck, even the Evangelion) where he wanted it to be in his gospel, and didn't even notice the aporia he was creating. I'd imagine he'd read those stories over and over so many times before that his brain just automatically slotted in the antecedent that he knew was there.

Just like we all do really--I never even noticed the problem until somebody pointed it out to me.

[RandyHelzerman]

Apparently, Jesus was so doubtless that his audience would say "Capharnaum" because he'd already read Mark and Matthew.