a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

[Peter Kirby]

Roth is also missing Origen's Fragment 166, where Origen is commenting on Luke 10:27-28.

These words are spoken against the disciples of Valentinus and Basilides, and those of Marcion, for they too have these words in their "Gospel." We shall say to them, "When Jesus agreed with the young man who quoted, 'You shall love the Lord your God,' as a commandment of the Law, he took it as applying to none other than the Creator. And in response the Savior said to him, 'You have answered rightly.'" What else does he want each of us to do that we might have eternal life except to love the God of the Law and the prophets "with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole strength and our whole mind"?

Epiphanius seems to support Origen's accuracy here:

Pan. 42.11.6(23). “He said to the lawyer, What is written in the Law?” And after the lawyer’s answer he replied, “Thou hast answered right. This do, and thou shalt live.”

There's also this. It's a complicated topic that I think I visited several times.

Pan. 42.11.6(50). “One said unto him, Good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He replied, “Call not thou me good. One is good, God.” Marcion added, “the Father,” and instead of, “Thou knowest the commandments” says, “I know the commandments.”

[Peter Kirby]

Here's the post on the subject that I was looking for:

There are a couple instances where the testimony of Tertullian (by which I mean, his source) make me doubt the wording of Epiphanius.

“One said unto him, Good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He replied, Call not thou me good. One is good, God.” Marcion added, “the Father,” and instead of, “Thou knowest the commandments,” says, “I know the commandments.” [Luke 18:18-19]

Tertullian says a lot about "eternal" being missing in a similar quote, and I launched an argument that this had been transposed from another passage that was a lot more important to Marcionites. I'm not sure if Tertullian's source here was the Antitheses or an earlier anti-Marcionite source, but in either case, the point was made that there was a textual difference between the gospel of the Marcionites and Luke with respect to this question. It remains possible that the earlier source was comparing this gospel to Luke, but this and the beginning would be the only such examples. I continue to consider it more likely that the dispute was about the more important passage for Marcionites; or, at least, that the gospel of the Marcionites omitted "eternal" in the question in both places (both passages are attested in Epiphanius but the question here isn't quoted in the other one), for consistency.

If so, who knows how the phrasing in all the canonical gospels entered here? There are multiple possible options. It could have been the slip of a copyist of Epiphanius, the slip of Epiphanius himself, or the slip of a copyist of the Marcionite gospel, perhaps unfamiliar with the earlier debate that hinged on the word. All of these are plausible enough, consistent with scribal habits and citation habits. Notably, this is one of the times where Epiphanius has a "Marcion added" formula, implying that the previous words came from Luke. Then the only slip would be not taking full notice of the other change here when copying from Luke.

This is now the third time that I'm visiting this question (which is a bit vexing), but I hope that it gets us closer to the truth here.

Marcionite argument based on Evangelion placed a sharp emphasis on the distinction between what others say and either what Jesus says or what is directly narrated. As we just saw in the last post here, the author of this gospel also seems to lean into this emphasis, given the way that the reference to Jesus having a mother and brothers is omitted from the direct narration and placed only in the statement from others. This is something that Jesus corrects in his own speech in reply. Accordingly, there isn't a strong presumption that the author of this gospel would have a problem with the questioner asking about eternal life and getting an ambiguous respose from Jesus that could be misunderstood (and which Jesus clarifies later on). The questioner would just be mistaken to assume that there is a direct connection between eternal life and keeping the commandments.

Two other things caused me to revisit this question:

(a) Epiphanius and Adamantius attesting to the statement here being "I know the commandments," not "You know the commandments."
(b) Matthew having the additional statement from Jesus, "If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Here is Matthew here:

19.16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 19.17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 19.18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19.19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 19.20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" 19.21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

There's something a little awkward about the reply to "If you would enter life, keep the commandments" being "Which?" It shows a response to Jesus' statement "If you would enter life, keep the commandments" and then sets up the following statement from Jesus on what the commands are. This does present a context in which it would be natural for the reply to be "I know the commandments," which is what Epiphanius and Adamantius say is the dialogue here in the gospel used by Marcionites.

Combining Mark // Luke and Matthew with what we know from Epiphanius and Adamantius, this may have stood in Evangelion:

10.17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 10.18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 10.19 He said to him, "I know the commandments: 'Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.' 10.20 All these I have observed from my youth." 10.21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

I have bolded what would be the implied alterations in comparison to Mark.

Very relevant to this notice in Tertullian is the fact that the statement of Jesus in Matthew has "life" instead of "eternal life." This would naturally form the basis of a Marcionite argument. Jesus is seen as replying about life, not eternal life. Jesus connects life, not eternal life, to keeping the commandments. Jesus later speaks about eternal life. The words of Jesus are much more important as a basis of interpretation than the words of the questioner. So if Tertullian got this information from Marcionite argument, he may have misunderstood it because he attempted to find it in Luke, thereby transposing it from the original context.

As an additional thing in favor of this reading, this would allow that Epiphanius simply has the quote here ("Good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?") correctly.

Which probably doesn't provide all the answers we might want here.

[Peter Kirby]

I previously offered these synopses.

Mark	Luke	Matthew
12.28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" 12.29 Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 12.30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' 12.31 The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 12.32 And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he; 12.33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 12.34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any question.	10.25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 10.26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" 10.27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 10.28 And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."	22.35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. 22.36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 22.37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 22.38 This is the great and first commandment. 22.39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 21.40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

Mark	Luke	Matthew
10.17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 10.18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 10.19 You know the commandments: 'Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 10.20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth." 10.21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 10.22 At that saying his countenance fell, and he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. 10.23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!" 10.24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 10.25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 10.26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" 10.27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." 10.28 Peter began to say to him, "Lo, we have left everything and followed you." 10.29 Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 10.30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. 10.31 But many that are first will be last, and the last first."	18.18 And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18.19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 18.20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.'" 18.21 And he said, "All these I have observed from my youth." 18.22 And when Jesus heard it, he said to him, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 18.23 But when he heard this he became sad, for he was very rich. 18.24 Jesus looking at him said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! 18.25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 18.26 Those who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" 18.27 But he said, "What is impossible with men is possible with God." 18.28 And Peter said, "Lo, we have left our homes and followed you." 18.29 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 18.30 who will not receive manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life."	19.16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 19.17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 19.18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19.19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 19.20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" 19.21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 19.22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. 19.23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven 19.24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 19.25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 19.26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 19.27 Then Peter said in reply, "Lo, we have left everything and followed you. What then shall we have?" 19.28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 19.29 And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 19.30 But many that are first will be last, and the last first.

[Peter Kirby]

Roth is also missing Origen's Fragment 166, where Origen is commenting on Luke 10:27-28.

These words are spoken against the disciples of Valentinus and Basilides, and those of Marcion, for they too have these words in their "Gospel." We shall say to them, "When Jesus agreed with the young man who quoted, 'You shall love the Lord your God,' as a commandment of the Law, he took it as applying to none other than the Creator. And in response the Savior said to him, 'You have answered rightly.'" What else does he want each of us to do that we might have eternal life except to love the God of the Law and the prophets "with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole strength and our whole mind"?

Epiphanius seems to support Origen's accuracy here:

Pan. 42.11.6(23). “He said to the lawyer, What is written in the Law?” And after the lawyer’s answer he replied, “Thou hast answered right. This do, and thou shalt live.”

There's also this. It's a complicated topic that I think I visited several times.

Pan. 42.11.6(50). “One said unto him, Good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He replied, “Call not thou me good. One is good, God.” Marcion added, “the Father,” and instead of, “Thou knowest the commandments” says, “I know the commandments.”

Origen's passage may correspond to the highlighted passage of Epiphanius, given the reference to the "young man" (Matthew 19:20 - "The young man said to him") instead of lawyer.

So Origen's reference here may be incorrectly aligned with Luke 10:27-28, in the translation I was using.

[Peter Kirby]

Roth is also missing Origen's Fragment 166, where Origen is commenting on Luke 10:27-28.

These words are spoken against the disciples of Valentinus and Basilides, and those of Marcion, for they too have these words in their "Gospel." We shall say to them, "When Jesus agreed with the young man who quoted, 'You shall love the Lord your God,' as a commandment of the Law, he took it as applying to none other than the Creator. And in response the Savior said to him, 'You have answered rightly.'" What else does he want each of us to do that we might have eternal life except to love the God of the Law and the prophets "with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole strength and our whole mind"?

So Origen's reference here may be incorrectly aligned with Luke 10:27-28, in the translation I was using.

If so, this would give us this (based additionally on Origen, and still bolding the parts disagreeing with Mark):

10.17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 10.18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 10.19 The young man said to him, "I know the commandments: 'You shall love the Lord your God... Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.' 10.20 All these I have observed from my youth." 10.21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You have answered rightly. You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

With an oddity being the phrase "You shall love the Lord your God" here.

[Ken Olson]

The reading Origen is quoting is peculiar to Luke among the synoptics, is it not?

Have I given the impression that I don't think there are readings "peculiar to Luke among the synoptics" in *Ev?

No, not at all. There is considerable Lukan Sondergut or L material paralleled in the Evangelion so there would have to be Lukan readings.

But I'm still trying to get my head around how your theory (Mark=>Evangelion=>Luke) works for triple tradition passages.

Where we find Luke agreeing with the Evangelion against Mark in a triple tradition passage, does this mean that Mark wrote first, the Evangelion followed Mark but with changes, and Luke then followed the Evangelion's version (with the changes incorporated)?

I'm also wondering if your theory posits, or will need to posit, that Luke, writing third, sometimes conflated Mark and the Evangelion (that is, there are agreements between Mark and Luke that Luke did not get from the Evangelion).

Best,

Ken

[Peter Kirby]

I'm also wondering if your theory posits, or will need to posit, that Luke, writing third, sometimes conflated Mark and the Evangelion (that is, there are agreements between Mark and Luke that Luke did not get from the Evangelion).

I think there are agreements between Mark and Luke that Luke did not get from *Ev.

[Peter Kirby]

With an oddity being the phrase "You shall love the Lord your God" here.

Going back to the drawing board, then:

Roth is also missing Origen's Fragment 166, where Origen is commenting on Luke 10:27-28.

These words are spoken against the disciples of Valentinus and Basilides, and those of Marcion, for they too have these words in their "Gospel." We shall say to them, "When Jesus agreed with the young man who quoted, 'You shall love the Lord your God,' as a commandment of the Law, he took it as applying to none other than the Creator. And in response the Savior said to him, 'You have answered rightly.'" What else does he want each of us to do that we might have eternal life except to love the God of the Law and the prophets "with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole strength and our whole mind"?

Pan. 42.11.6(23). “He said to the lawyer, What is written in the Law?” And after the lawyer’s answer he replied, “Thou hast answered right. This do, and thou shalt live.”

Perhaps the identification of "the young man" comes from *Ev and was here (where Mark mentions "one of the scribes" and where Luke or Matthew mentions "a lawyer"):

Mark	Luke	Matthew
12.28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" 12.29 Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 12.30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' 12.31 The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 12.32 And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he; 12.33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 12.34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any question.	10.25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 10.26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" 10.27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 10.28 And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."	22.35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. 22.36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 22.37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 22.38 This is the great and first commandment. 22.39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 21.40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

[andrewcriddle]

Matthew	Mark	Luke
20.20 Then the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something 20.21 And he said to her, "What do you want?" She said to him, "Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." 20.22 But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?" They said to him, "We are able." 20.23 He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." 20.24 And when the ten heard it, they were indignant at the two brothers. 20.25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 20.26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 20.27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; 20.28 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."	10.35 And James and John, the sons of Zeb'edee, came forward to him, and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." 10.36 And he said to them, "What do you want me to do for you?" 10.37 And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory." 10.38 But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" 10.39 And they said to him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized; 10.40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared." 10.41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. 10.42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, "You know that those who are supposed to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 10.43 But it shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 10.44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. 10.45 For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."	22.24 A dispute also arose among them, which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. 22.25 And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 22.26 But not so with you; rather let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. 22.27 For which is the greater, one who sits at table, or one who serves? Is it not the one who sits at table? But I am among you as one who serves. 22.28 " You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 22.29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 22.30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Origen, Homily on Luke 25.5

For some say this, that the passage in Scripture that speaks of "sitting at the Savior's right and left" applies to Paul and Marcion: Paul sits at his right hand and Marcion at his left.

It seems IMO unlikely that Marcion himself believed that this passage referred to him. It is probably an idea of some of his later followers.

Andrew Criddle

[Secret Alias]

Why? Because the Church Fathers were infallible of course or at least shouldn't have been inaccurate?