a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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Peter Kirby
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a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

Post by Peter Kirby »


Matthew Mark Luke
20.20 Then the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something
20.21 And he said to her, "What do you want?" She said to him, "Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." 20.22 But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?" They said to him, "We are able." 20.23 He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." 20.24 And when the ten heard it, they were indignant at the two brothers. 20.25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 20.26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 20.27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; 20.28 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
10.35 And James and John, the sons of Zeb'edee, came forward to him, and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." 10.36 And he said to them, "What do you want me to do for you?" 10.37 And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory." 10.38 But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" 10.39 And they said to him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized; 10.40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared." 10.41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. 10.42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, "You know that those who are supposed to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 10.43 But it shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 10.44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. 10.45 For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." 22.24 A dispute also arose among them, which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. 22.25 And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 22.26 But not so with you; rather let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. 22.27 For which is the greater, one who sits at table, or one who serves? Is it not the one who sits at table? But I am among you as one who serves. 22.28 " You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 22.29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 22.30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Origen, Homily on Luke 25.5

For some say this, that the passage in Scripture that speaks of "sitting at the Savior's right and left" applies to Paul and Marcion: Paul sits at his right hand and Marcion at his left.

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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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The context is a homily on Luke 3:15 and people being carried away in excessive honor of persons.
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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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A quick check shows that this is not mentioned in Roth's 2009 thesis, BeDuhn's 2013 book, or Klinghardt's 2021 English translation of his book.

Notably it doesn't map neatly onto the spine of Luke's verses (it's Matthew // Mark material), which all of these texts follow.
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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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Roth is also missing Origen's Fragment 166, where Origen is commenting on Luke 10:27-28.

These words are spoken against the disciples of Valentinus and Basilides, and those of Marcion, for they too have these words in their "Gospel." We shall say to them, "When Jesus agreed with the young man who quoted, 'You shall love the Lord your God,' as a commandment of the Law, he took it as applying to none other than the Creator. And in response the Savior said to him, 'You have answered rightly.'" What else does he want each of us to do that we might have eternal life except to love the God of the Law and the prophets "with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole strength and our whole mind"?

Origen often speaks of Valentinus, Basilides, and Marcion as demiurgists, considering the Father of Christ to be a different God. Here the reference to having "these words in their Gospel" applies specifically to those of Marcion, who have "their" Gospel.

Elsewhere Origen criticizes heretics who accept the Gospel of Luke, which would apply for example to Basilides (Homily on Luke 16.5 on Luke 2:34).
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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:30 pm Roth is also missing Origen's Fragment 166, where Origen is commenting on Luke 10:27-28.

These words are spoken against the disciples of Valentinus and Basilides, and those of Marcion, for they too have these words in their "Gospel." We shall say to them, "When Jesus agreed with the young man who quoted, 'You shall love the Lord your God,' as a commandment of the Law, he took it as applying to none other than the Creator. And in response the Savior said to him, 'You have answered rightly.'" What else does he want each of us to do that we might have eternal life except to love the God of the Law and the prophets "with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole strength and our whole mind"?

Origen often speaks of Valentinus, Basilides, and Marcion as demiurgists, considering the Father of Christ to be a different God. Here the reference to having "these words in their Gospel" applies specifically to those of Marcion, who have "their" Gospel.

Elsewhere Origen criticizes heretics who accept the Gospel of Luke, which would apply for example to Basilides (Homily on Luke 16.5 on Luke 2:34).
The reading Origen is quoting is peculiar to Luke among the synoptics, is it not? Are you supposing that these words were in the the gospel used by Marcion and the Marcionites, or that Origen is commenting on what was in canonical Luke and merely meant that the Marcionites had a generally similar passage in their gospel?

Best,

Ken
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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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Roth also doesn't cite Origen's Fragment 242, commenting on Luke 20:38 // Mark 12:27 // Matthew 22:32.

But we know that the followers of Marcion and Valentinus still struggle against this passage and apply the saying to souls. For, they say that these souls live, and that the Lord said of them that God was the God of these souls. But the point of controversy for the Sadducees was never about souls but about bodies, so that the answer applied to bodies. For, the dead man is said to rise when the soul joins the body and not during the period in between, when the soul is separated from the body and does not have the properties of life that accompany the body. Both of them, a man and ordinary life, form a unity, and each of them is needed to restore life again after death.

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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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I also wonder whether the original canonical New Testament set was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John "back to back" in their entirety or - as I suspect - four columns on a page like Origen's scholarship. In other words did Ammonius put the gospels "back to back" or as four columns on a page. Might help explain the Catholic attitude to Marcionism. Irenaeus's reference to the gospels as four pillars always struck me as descriptive.
It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the "pillar and ground" of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh.
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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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Ken Olson wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:58 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:30 pm Roth is also missing Origen's Fragment 166, where Origen is commenting on Luke 10:27-28.

These words are spoken against the disciples of Valentinus and Basilides, and those of Marcion, for they too have these words in their "Gospel." We shall say to them, "When Jesus agreed with the young man who quoted, 'You shall love the Lord your God,' as a commandment of the Law, he took it as applying to none other than the Creator. And in response the Savior said to him, 'You have answered rightly.'" What else does he want each of us to do that we might have eternal life except to love the God of the Law and the prophets "with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole strength and our whole mind"?

Origen often speaks of Valentinus, Basilides, and Marcion as demiurgists, considering the Father of Christ to be a different God. Here the reference to having "these words in their Gospel" applies specifically to those of Marcion, who have "their" Gospel.

Elsewhere Origen criticizes heretics who accept the Gospel of Luke, which would apply for example to Basilides (Homily on Luke 16.5 on Luke 2:34).
The reading Origen is quoting is peculiar to Luke among the synoptics, is it not? Are you supposing that these words were in the the gospel used by Marcion and the Marcionites, or that Origen is commenting on what was in canonical Luke and merely meant that the Marcionites had a generally similar passage in their gospel?
If I understand what you're asking, couldn't it be either?
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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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Ken Olson wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:58 pmThe reading Origen is quoting is peculiar to Luke among the synoptics, is it not?
Have I given the impression that I don't think there are readings "peculiar to Luke among the synoptics" in *Ev?
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Re: a neglected Marcionite gospel reference

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Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 2:18 pm
Ken Olson wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:58 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:30 pm Roth is also missing Origen's Fragment 166, where Origen is commenting on Luke 10:27-28.

These words are spoken against the disciples of Valentinus and Basilides, and those of Marcion, for they too have these words in their "Gospel." We shall say to them, "When Jesus agreed with the young man who quoted, 'You shall love the Lord your God,' as a commandment of the Law, he took it as applying to none other than the Creator. And in response the Savior said to him, 'You have answered rightly.'" What else does he want each of us to do that we might have eternal life except to love the God of the Law and the prophets "with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole strength and our whole mind"?

Origen often speaks of Valentinus, Basilides, and Marcion as demiurgists, considering the Father of Christ to be a different God. Here the reference to having "these words in their Gospel" applies specifically to those of Marcion, who have "their" Gospel.

Elsewhere Origen criticizes heretics who accept the Gospel of Luke, which would apply for example to Basilides (Homily on Luke 16.5 on Luke 2:34).
The reading Origen is quoting is peculiar to Luke among the synoptics, is it not? Are you supposing that these words were in the the gospel used by Marcion and the Marcionites, or that Origen is commenting on what was in canonical Luke and merely meant that the Marcionites had a generally similar passage in their gospel?
If I understand what you're asking, couldn't it be either?
Epiphanius seems to support Origen's accuracy here:

Pan. 42.11.6(23). “He said to the lawyer, What is written in the Law?” And after the lawyer’s answer he replied, “Thou hast answered right. This do, and thou shalt live.”

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