the law is just, the παιδαγωγός, and the Marcionites

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Secret Alias
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Re: the law is just, the παιδαγωγός, and the Marcionites

Post by Secret Alias »

This is Marcionite.

What, then, will they have the law to be? They will not call it evil (κακὸν), but just (δίκαιον); distinguishing what is good from what is just (τὸ ἀγαθὸν τοῦ δικαίου).
Secret Alias
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Re: the law is just, the παιδαγωγός, and the Marcionites

Post by Secret Alias »

Here's what I notice:
διαστέλλοντες τὸ ἀγαθὸν τοῦ δικαίου.
The Marcionites "separate" the good and the just. Clement does too. He just can't say so because his writings are being scrutinized (or they were subsequently altered at critical places because he was a Marcionite).

Even the Marcionite in De Recta in Deum Fide seems to approve of (John 13:34-35), Jesus said, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

"A new commandment I give unto you: "That you love others" I now read what is different in the Law "You shall love the Lord God with your whole mind" and secondly "Your neighbor as yourself."

ἐντολὴν καινὴν δίδωμι ὑμῖν ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους, ἀναγινώσκω τὰ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ διεσταλμένα· ἀγαπήσεις, φησί, κύριον τὸν θεὸν ἐξ ὅλης τῆς διανοίας σου· καὶ δεύτερον· τὸν πλησίον σου ὡς σεαυτόν.

Mandatum nouum inquit do vobis, ut diligatis inuicem, recito ca quae in lege distincta sunt: Diliges, inquit, Dominum Deum ex tota mente tua secundo, Proximum tuum, sicut teipsum

Clement clearly separated the just power from the good power. So did Philo. So did Marcion. The Marcionite's crime was to be Jewish and distinguish two powers in heaven, justice and mercy.
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MrMacSon
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Re: the apostle

Post by MrMacSon »


Now the apostle, whom they do not comprehend

I'm interested to know who the apostle is.

From https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... book2.html

For how ever could the soul admit the transcendental contemplation of such themes, while unbelief respecting what was to be learned struggled within? But faith, which the Greeks disparage, deeming it futile and barbarous, is a voluntary preconception the assent of piety -- "the subject of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen," according to the divine apostle. "For hereby," pre-eminently, "the elders obtained a good report. But without faith it is impossible to please God."

"the subject of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" is from Hebrews 11:1.

And "the elders obtained a good report" is from Hebrews 11:2.


Let's aside for a moment,
  • and go to Stromateis book 1:


    ... Wisdom is a communicative and philanthropic thing. Accordingly, Solomon says, "My son, if thou receive the saying of my commandment, and hide it with thee, thine ear shall hear wisdom." He points out that the word that is sown is hidden in the soul of the learner, as in the earth, and this is spiritual planting ...

    And if knowledge belong not to all (set an ass to the lyre, as the proverb goes), yet written compositions are for the many. "Swine, for instance, delight in dirt more than in clean water." "Wherefore," says the Lord, "I speak to them in parables: because seeing, they see not; and hearing, they hear not, and do not understand; " not as if the Lord caused the ignorance: for it were impious to think so. But He prophetically exposed this ignorance, that existed in them, and intimated that they would not understand the things spoken. And now the Saviour shows Himself, out of His abundance, dispensing goods to His servants according to the ability of the recipient ... He said, "Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou oughtest to have given my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received mine own." Wherefore the useless servant "shall be cast into outer darkness."

    "Thou, therefore, be strong," says Paul, "in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things which thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." And again: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

    If, then, both proclaim the Word -- the one by writing, the other by speech -- are not both then to be approved, making, as they do, faith active by love? It is by one's own fault that he does not choose what is best; God is free of blame ...

    https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... book1.html


    So, I presume the references thereafter to "the apostle" are references to Paul

    More confirmation shortly thereafter:


    But there is that species of knowledge which is characteristic of the herald, and that which is, as it were, characteristic of a messenger, and it is serviceable in whatever way it operates, both by the hand and tongue. "For he that soweth to the Spirit, shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well-doing." On him who by Divine Providence meets in with it, it confers the very highest advantages, -- the beginning of faith, readiness for adopting a right mode of life, the impulse towards the truth, a movement of inquiry, a trace of knowledge; in a word, it gives the means of salvation. And those who have been rightly reared in the words of truth, and received provision for eternal life, wing their way to heaven.

    Most admirably, therefore, the apostle says, "In everything approving ourselves as the servants of God; as poor, and yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing all things. Our mouth is opened to you."

    "I charge thee," he says, writing to Timothy, "before God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things, without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality."


    Though there's a first reference to "the divine apostle":

    Now the Scripture kindles the living spark of the soul and directs the eye suitably for contemplation; perchance inserting something, as the husbandman when he ingrafts, but, according to the opinion of the divine apostle, exciting what is in the soul. "For there are certainly among us many weak and sickly, and many sleep. But if we judge ourselves, we shall not be judged." Now this work of mine in writing is not artfully constructed for display; but my memoranda are stored up against old age, as a remedy against forgetfulness, truly an image and outline of those vigorous and animated discourses which I was privileged to hear, and of blessed and truly remarkable men.

    and to "apostolic meadow" as in:

    the Sicilian bee, gathering the spoil of the flowers of the prophetic and apostolic meadow, engendered in the souls of his hearers a deathless element of knowledge.

    And there's reference to "the holy apostles,"

    .... preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God's will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds.

    and to "some apostles,"
    "God gave to the Church, some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

    and
    But among the lies, the false prophets also told some true things. And in reality they prophesied "in an ecstasy," as the servants of the apostate. And the Shepherd, the angel of repentance, says to Hermas, of the false prophet: "For he speaks some truths. For the devil fills him with his own spirit, if perchance he may be able to cast down any one from what is right."

    and
    The divine apostle writes accordingly respecting us: "For now we see as through a glass" (1 Cor. 13:12)

    So, there, the divine apostle is Paul.

The second mention of 'the apostle' in Stromateis book 2:

"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made of things which appear," says the apostle. "By faith Abel offered to God a fuller sacrifice than Cain, by which he received testimony that he was righteous, God giving testimony to him respecting his gifts; and by it he, being dead, yet speaketh," and so forth, down to "than enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season." Faith having, therefore, justified these before the law, made them heirs of the divine promise.

Chapter 4:

"Lord, who hath believed our report?" Isaiah says. For "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God," saith the apostle. "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe on Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those that publish glad tidings of good things! "3 You see how he brings faith by hearing, and the preaching of the apostles, up to the word of the Lord, and to the Son of God. We do not yet understand the word of the Lord to be demonstration.

But, in Chapter 6:

And, in truth, faith is discovered, by us, to be the first movement towards salvation; after which fear, and hope, and repentance, advancing in company with temperance and patience, lead us to love and knowledge. Rightly, therefore, the Apostle Barnabas says, "From the portion I have received I have done my diligence to send by little and little to you; that along with your faith you may also have perfect knowledge.

And the end of chapter 8:

And Barnabas the apostle having said, "Woe to those who are wise in their own conceits, clever in their own eyes," added, "Let us become spiritual, a perfect temple to God; let us, as far as in us lies, practise the fear of God, and strive to keep His commands, that we may rejoice in His judgments." Whence "the fear of God" is divinely said to be the beginning of wisdom.

There's another reference to Barnabas as "the apostolic Barnabas" as 'a fellow-worker of Paul':

adducing as a witness the apostolic Barnabas (and he was one of the seventy and a fellow-worker of Paul), who speaks in these words: "Before we believed in God, the dwelling-place of our heart was unstable, truly a temple built with hands.

And also the term, "the apostolic man."

Near the end of Stromateis book 2:


Isaiah too, in exhorting him that hath not believed to gravity of life, and the Gnostic to attention, proving that man's virtue and God's are not the same, speaks thus: "Seek the Lord, and on finding Him call on Him. And when He shall draw near to you, let the wicked forsake his ways, and the unrighteous man his ways; and let him return to the Lord, and he shall obtain mercy," down to "and your thoughts from my thoughts."'

"We," then, according to the noble apostle, "wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love." And we desire that every one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope," down to "made an high priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek."

Similarly with Paul "the All-virtuous Wisdom" says, "He, that heareth me shall dwell trusting in hope." For the restoration of hope is called by the same term "hope." To the expression "will dwell" it has most beautifully added" trusting," showing that such an one has obtained rest, having received the hope for which he hoped.

Wherefore also it is added, "and shall be quiet, without fear of any evil."

And openly and expressly the apostle, in the first Epistle to the Corinthians says, "Be ye followers of me, as also I am of Christ," s in order that that may take place. If ye are of me, and I am of Christ, then ye are imitators of Christ, and Christ of God. Assimilation to God, then, so that as far as possible a man becomes righteous and holy with wisdom he lays down as the aim of faith, and the end to be that restitution of the promise which is effected by faith. From these doctrines gush the fountains, which we specified above, of those who have dogmatized about "the end." But of these enough.


Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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if the absence of fear is called the beginning of good, fear is a good thing

Post by MrMacSon »

Added more text after Peter's highlights to tease this out:
Peter Kirby wrote:
Clement of Alexandria writes (Stromateis 2.7-8):


To these, then, and certain others, especially the Marcionites, the Scripture cries, though they listen not, “He that heareth me shall rest with confidence in peace, and shall be tranquil, fearless of all evil.”

What, then, will they have the law to be? They will not call it evil (κακὸν), but just (δίκαιον); distinguishing what is good from what is just (τὸ ἀγαθὸν τοῦ δικαίου) ...
.



To these, then, and certain others, especially the Marcionites, the Scripture cries, though they listen not, “He that heareth me shall rest with confidence in peace, and shall be tranquil, fearless of all evil.”

What, then, will they have the law to be? They will not call it evil (κακὸν), but just (δίκαιον); distinguishing what is good from what is just (τὸ ἀγαθὸν τοῦ δικαίου). But the Lord, when He enjoins us to dread evil, does not exchange one evil for another, but abolishes what is opposite by its opposite. Now evil is the opposite of good, as what is just is of what is unjust.

If, then, that absence of fear, which the fear of the Lord produces, is called the beginning of what is good, fear is a good thing. And the fear which proceeds from the law is not only just, but good, as it takes away evil. But introducing absence of fear by means of fear, it does not produce apathy by means of mental perturbation, but moderation of feeling by discipline. When, then, we hear, "Honour the Lord, and be strong: but fear not another besides Him," we understand it to be meant fearing to sin, and following the commandments given by God, which is the honour that cometh from God.

For the fear of God [in Greek] is Deos. But if fear is perturbation of mind, as some will have it that fear is perturbation of mind, yet all fear is not perturbation. Superstition is indeed perturbation of mind; being the fear of demons, that produce and are subject to the excitement of passion. On the other hand, consequently, the fear of God, who is not subject to perturbation, is free of perturbation. For it is not God, but failing away from God, that the man is terrified for.

And he who fears this -- that is, falling into evils -- fears and dreads those evils. And he who fears a fall, wishes himself to be free of corruption and perturbation. "The wise man, fearing, avoids evil: but the foolish, trusting, mixes himself with it," says the Scripture; and again it says, "In the fear of the Lord is the hope of strength."

Such a fear, accordingly, leads to repentance and hope. Now hope is the expectation of good things, or an expectation sanguine of absent good ...
.

JarekS
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Re: the law is just, the παιδαγωγός, and the Marcionites

Post by JarekS »

He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” (Mark5:7)
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, (Luke 1:32)
There are a few interpretation possibilities here.Turning someone into a heretic has never been a problem.
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