Marcion saute

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Marcion saute

Post by StephenGoranson »

Wait, one publisher or publishers?
You started out with one.
Now plural.
Make up your mind.
And who declared "coherence"?
Have you read Walter Bauer?
JarekS
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Re: Marcion saute

Post by JarekS »

It began with exegeses of the LXX supported by the authority of personal revelations. A safe and traditional way to contact the divine.

The Shepherd's publisher invented a hero who told his visions. There is no word of Jesus in this work. Two authors, compilation of texts.

Another publisher of Pauline Corpus invented the Great Apostle as the only possibility of knowing the divine Jesus through revelation and exegesis of Scripture. A classic method of entering any religious movement with one's own content, used many times in different places at different times in different religions. This is clearly visible in Zuntz's drawing - everyone knows Paul's letters only from the published Pauline Corpus collection and not from individual letters. The only exception is Marcion, who had his own version of the letter to the Galatians. You can see this vertical line from the Galatians to Marcion.
The publisher and creator of the Great Apostle clearly did not want to mix the figure of Paul with the figure of the historical Jesus. In this way, he shows his skepticism about the truthfulness of these Gospel stories.
Fortune likes the brave and finally someone was brave and came up with the historical Jesus. First, a collection of quotations, then some pericopes, and then an increasingly complex narrative based on the oral tradition. And placing it in time and space.
In the case of the synoptic gospels, we have one more publisher who ensured a coherent image of the historical Jesus.
He chose a risky model of writing and developing a fictional narrative. Whether it is 95% fictional (G.Ludemann) or 100% does not change the fact that the gospels are a myth.

Why did the gospels win?

Because it is a product tailored to a mass audience. Divine intervention on earth. Simple and effective message. We still love myths - in mass culture Marvel or DC Comics. In Catholicism - regular Marian apparitions. Nobody is born a philosopher.
The promotion of specific content material was intensified by the missionary activity of the most important players who popularized selected works.
Orthodoxy and heresy in early Christianity? Yes, I read it. I read a lot.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Marcion saute

Post by Peter Kirby »

Would you say that a publisher the same thing as a scriptorium?

The latter is a more familiar term in the context of Roman antiquity.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Marcion saute

Post by StephenGoranson »

Raising the question about scriptoria is helpful.
Though some things about human nature may be long-lasting, it's also said that "the past is another country: they do things differently there."
Back before the printing press, and "content providers," and so on.
Some manuscripts had patrons.
Some had no patron.
Some were free gifts.
Some were sold.
Some were personal copies.
Some were house-church copies.
Some were obtained by opponents.
Some were copied by women.
Some had no permission.
Some were school exercises.
Some were traded.
Some were stolen.
Some were bartered.
Some were inherited.
Some were found abandoned.
Some ended up in trash-heaps.
JarekS
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Re: Marcion saute

Post by JarekS »

Publisher is the head of the project of creating a content product. This may be an employee from the scriptorium, experienced in contacts with clients, who is able to obtain detailed expectations from the client. But publisher could be a customer representative.
I associate scryptorium as a publisher's subcontractor, a supplier of ghostwriters, editors, translators and copyists.
A publisher is a person who knows what to deliver to the market and selects personal and material resources to achieve it. Meets own or customer requirements.
The evangelical project of writing down traditions and creating a coherent image of the historical Jesus was not a conspiracy but a normal process of writing down and unifying traditions, invented narrative concepts and LXX egzegesis. At the beginning the resulting writings were anonymous. Only later, for propaganda purposes, were these writings elevated to the level of New Scripture with mythical authorial attribution and historical policy was promoted.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Marcion saute

Post by StephenGoranson »

This, JarekS, reads largely as a recapitulation of your present-day experience in the "content business" for a "publisher," attemptedly retrojected to an ancient setting.
Do you have ancient evidence for ancient relevance of this model?
JarekS
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Re: Marcion saute

Post by JarekS »

Everything that exists today is based on the achievements of antiquity. Roman law is the basis of our law, ancient philosophy is everywhere, ancient religion continues to this day. The names of the processes have changed and their development has taken place. The rules of operation of the market have not changed. People like content so much that they are constantly connected to it and have access to it in their pocket. We are dealing with a technological revolution whose aim is to meet these expectations. What is commonly offered is a historical policy, not a historical account. For a simple reason. Because it sells better. Historical policy is a product whose attractiveness has been artificially increased.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Marcion saute

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JarekS wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:38 pm The rules of operation of the market have not changed.
Which rules have not changed?
JarekS
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Re: Marcion saute

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Principles of attractiveness and competition. If you want to win, you have to choose and offer the right product that will conquer the market. You need to be better organized than your competition. "Be smart, be first.." (Margin Call - J.Irons speech).
This is what Marcion represented when he financed the Roman commune (Tertullian) and delivered his writings to it ("But he (Marcion) had brought writings or letters to him (John) from the brothers which were in Pontus." anti-macionite prologue to John).
The Romans survived the pressure, learned business, created a corporation uniting all those threatened by Marcion and established contacts with the imperial administration. They found a way and ultimately won the competition to lead the Christian movement. Rome tested the Christian corporation and appreciated its flexibility and resistance to persecution, then invited it to manage the crumbling State, ensuring exclusivity. It is sad that all these dreams of people about contact with the divine end in the management and control of society.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Marcion saute

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JarekS wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:14 pm Principles of attractiveness and competition. If you want to win, you have to choose and offer the right product that will conquer the market.
Are 'product' and 'market' here literal or metaphorical? What do you actually mean?
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