Was Paul Marcion (in part, at least)?

[Secret Alias]

Look what the Christians did to Plato in the third century. Even a erudite scholar like Julius Africanus "jazzed up" the texts of Plato. Orthodox Christians were ok with falsifying texts in the name of God. The texts of Origen in the late third and fourth centuries too. As long as it reinforced "holy doctrine" erasure and addition was ok.

[Secret Alias]

I also find it incredible that Acts pretends Paul was a former Pharisee. Like hearing Hugh Hefner was celibate. Paul thought the destruction of the temple was clearing the way for the true religion. As hard to find that as modern Israelites thinking October 7 was a great thing.

[Secret Alias]

Ancient Samaritans and those partially aligned with Samaritanism like the Sadducees another matter entirely.

[Charles Wilson]

MrMacSon --

A good suggestion.

Some time ago, I speculated on something like this awhile back:

Tacitus, Histories, Book 3:

"All other nations were equally restless. A sudden outbreak had been excited in Pontus by a barbarian slave, who had before commanded the royal fleet. This was Anicetus, a freedman of Polemon, once a very powerful personage, who, when the kingdom was converted into a Roman province, ill brooked the change. Accordingly he raised in the name of Vitellius the tribes that border on Pontus, bribed a number of very needy adventurers by the hope of plunder, and, at the head of a force by no means contemptible, made a sudden attack on the old and famous city of Trapezus, founded by the Greeks on the farthest shore of the Pontus. There he destroyed a cohort, once a part of the royal contingent. They had afterwards received the privileges of citizenship, and while they carried their arms and banners in Roman fashion, they still retained the indolence and licence of the Greek. Anicetus also set fire to the fleet, and, as the sea was not guarded, escaped, for Mucianus had brought up to Byzantium the best of the Liburnian ships and all the troops. The barbarians even insolently scoured the sea in hastily constructed vessels of their own called "camarae," built with narrow sides and broad bottoms, and joined together without fastenings of brass or iron. Whenever the water is rough they raise the bulwarks with additional planks according to the increasing height of the waves, till the vessel is covered in like a house. Thus they roll about amid the billows, and, as they have a prow at both extremities alike and a convertible arrangement of oars, they may be paddled in one direction or another indifferently and without risk.

The matter attracted the attention of Vespasian, and induced him to dispatch some veterans from the legions under Virdius Geminus, a tried soldier. Finding the enemy in disorder and dispersed in the eager pursuit of plunder, he attacked them, and drove them to their ships. Hastily fitting out a fleet of Liburnian ships he pursued Anicetus, and overtook him at the mouth of the river Cohibus, where he was protected by the king of the Sedochezi, whose alliance he had secured by a sum of money and other presents. This prince at first endeavoured to protect the suppliant by a threat of hostilities; when, however, the choice was presented to him between war and the profit to be derived from treachery, he consented, with the characteristic perfidy of barbarians, to the destruction of Anicetus, and delivered up the refugees. So ended this servile war..."

So Tacitus tells us. I truly believe that you cannot understand Acts without fitting these few words to the descriptions in Acts. You can start with the Camarae Boats and look at the Inlet to the Cohibus and the "Planks" breaking apart. With Polybius, Histories, 150, thrown in, this Section simply sets up beautifully.

BUT WAIT!!! THERE'S MORE!!!

Mucianus is marching "around the horn" to attack Rome and prepare for Vespasian's Ascension. Anicetus has "set fire to the fleet" and attacked Trapezus.

"Mucianus" => "Mucian-us" => "Murcian" => Marcion".

It would be highly improbable that such a Conflagration would have occurred and then been totally forgotten in a few short decades. "Mucianus' could not have become "Marcion" except through a "Convenient History" written around a shipbuilder from The Pontus.

This may be too many speculations but there is still a basic idea that "Marcion from Sinope" would not have remembered when Anicetus was protected by the king of the Sedochezi and Trapezus and the fleet burned. That event would not be forgotten:

Acts 8: 30 - 39 (RSV):

[30] So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
[31] And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
[32] Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this: "As a sheep led to the slaughter
or a lamb before its shearer is dumb,
so he opens not his mouth.
[33] In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken up from the earth."
[34] And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?"
[35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus.
[36] And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"
[38] And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
[39] And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

"...and the eunuch saw him no more..." Of course not. The eunuch is dead.
So ends Anicetus.

CW

[MrMacSon]

Paul wrote for the gentiles.

Significant key apsects of what Paul wrote was to diss 'Judaism': at a time when 'Judaism' was a lot more diverse than is commonly recognised.

I kind of/mostly agree with this:

No. That's what the orthodox say. Doesn't make any sense. The Marcionites said he wrote for the proselytes which makes sense.

The Pauline epistles had to have been written for people interested in a new 'philosophy' or to interest people in a 'new philosophy' away from Judaism

The fact their first recognition or evidence is through or associated with the Marcionites has to be significant, especially considering that Marcion was interested in a 'new philosophy' away from Judaism

[MrMacSon]

I also find it incredible that Acts pretends Paul was a former Pharisee. Like hearing Hugh Hefner was celibate. Paul thought the destruction of the temple was clearing the way for the true religion.

Yeah, that is incredible.

[MrMacSon]

The following is emphasised differently by me, ie. I've removed Charles' and added my own

MrMacSon --

A good suggestion.

Some time ago, I speculated on something like this awhile back:

Tacitus, Histories, Book 3:

"All other nations were equally restless. A sudden outbreak had been excited in Pontus by a barbarian slave, who had before commanded the royal fleet. This was Anicetus, a freedman of Polemon, once a very powerful personage, who, when the kingdom was converted into a Roman province, ill brooked the change. Accordingly he raised in the name of Vitellius the tribes that border on Pontus, bribed a number of very needy adventurers by the hope of plunder, and, at the head of a force by no means contemptible, made a sudden attack on the old and famous city of Trapezus, founded by the Greeks on the farthest shore of the Pontus. There he destroyed a cohort, once a part of the royal contingent. They had afterwards received the privileges of citizenship, and while they carried their arms and banners in Roman fashion, they still retained the indolence and licence of the Greek. Anicetus also set fire to the fleet, and, as the sea was not guarded, escaped, for Mucianus had brought up to Byzantium the best of the Liburnian ships and all the troops. The barbarians even insolently scoured the sea in hastily constructed vessels of their own called "camarae," built with narrow sides and broad bottoms, and joined together without fastenings of brass or iron. Whenever the water is rough they raise the bulwarks with additional planks according to the increasing height of the waves, till the vessel is covered in like a house. Thus they roll about amid the billows, and, as they have a prow at both extremities alike and a convertible arrangement of oars, they may be paddled in one direction or another indifferently and without risk.

The matter attracted the attention of Vespasian and induced him to dispatch some veterans from the legions under Virdius Geminus, a tried soldier. Finding the enemy in disorder and dispersed in the eager pursuit of plunder, he attacked them, and drove them to their ships. Hastily fitting out a fleet of Liburnian ships he pursued Anicetus and overtook him at the mouth of the river Cohibus, where he [Anicetus] was protected by the king of the Sedochezi, whose alliance he had secured by a sum of money and other presents. This prince at first endeavoured to protect the suppliant by a threat of hostilities; when, however, the choice was presented to him between war and the profit to be derived from treachery, he consented, with the characteristic perfidy of barbarians, to the destruction of Anicetus, and delivered up the refugees. So ended this servile war..."

So Tacitus tells us. I truly believe that you cannot understand Acts without fitting these few words to the descriptions in Acts. You can start with the Camarae Boats and look at the Inlet to the Cohibus and the "Planks" breaking apart. With Polybius, Histories, 150, thrown in, this Section simply sets up beautifully.

BUT WAIT!!! THERE'S MORE!!!

Mucianus is marching "around the horn" to attack Rome and prepare for Vespasian's Ascension. Anicetus has "set fire to the fleet" and attacked Trapezus.

"Mucianus" => "Mucian-us" => "Murcian" => Marcion".

It would be highly improbable that such a Conflagration would have occurred and then been totally forgotten in a few short decades. "Mucianus' could not have become "Marcion" except through a "Convenient History" written around a shipbuilder from The Pontus.

This may be too many speculations but there is still a basic idea that "Marcion from Sinope" would not have remembered when Anicetus was protected by the king of the Sedochezi and Trapezus and the fleet burned. That event would not be forgotten:

Acts 8: 30 - 39 (RSV):

[30] So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
[31] And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
[32] Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this: "As a sheep led to the slaughter
or a lamb before its shearer is dumb,
so he opens not his mouth.
[33] In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken up from the earth."
[34] And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?"
[35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus.
[36] And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"
[38] And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
[39] And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

"...and the eunuch saw him no more..." Of course not. The eunuch is dead.
So ends Anicetus.

CW

There's certainly some interesting parallels to how some theological disputes might have played out, e.g., with support of a local king and with fighting (and how things might have played out around the Aegean Sea) ...

[Charles Wilson]

YES!!!
No one, as far as I know, has mapped out the various Paths followed by Vespasian and especially Antonius Primus and Mucianus, to see if the Time Lines are even possible.
"Hastily fitting out a fleet of Liburnian ships he pursued Anicetus..."

Oh, RILLY!!!
Mucianus went to the local Boat Store and ordered a fleet of Luburnian Ships for Kwik Delivery?
Something's weird here. Primus does the Job against the Vitellians and Mucianus takes over.

Let's play Beat The Clock!

All of this happens on a Time Table that has the Interested Parties hitting Rome at Juuuust the Right Time.
Yeah. OK. Sure.

Per usual, Mr. MacSon, you are ahead of the curve.

CW