Was "IS XS" a "consistent code name" like 007?

[Leucius Charinus]

Now that I think about it - James Bond and Ian Flemming - are a pretty good example of what has happened with the gospel Jesus story. The created literary figure of James Bond has had many actors play the part in movies. As the gospel Jesus historicsts have supplied many versions of their, assumed, historical Jesus figure - seditionist to pacifist - and many more inbetween....

That's a good point. I should add that whereas "Jesus Christ" appears in the NT story under a consistent code name of "IS XS", James Bond appears under a consistent code name of "007".

Whereas Flemming provides a name behind the code the NT author(s) do not. As a result in antiquity (to return to the OP) it was not the historicity of "Jesus Christ" which may or may not have been challenged. The name of "Jesus Christ" is plastered across all modern translations of the NT but is absent from the earliest manuscript evidence. Rather what may or may not have been challenged is the historicity of the figure known as "IS XS".

[Peter Kirby]

There was some previous discussion on the topic of these abbreviations here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11368

I.e., that the people using these texts knew how to speak the words associated with these abbreviations.

[maryhelena]

Now that I think about it - James Bond and Ian Flemming - are a pretty good example of what has happened with the gospel Jesus story. The created literary figure of James Bond has had many actors play the part in movies. As the gospel Jesus historicsts have supplied many versions of their, assumed, historical Jesus figure - seditionist to pacifist - and many more inbetween....

That's a good point. I should add that whereas "Jesus Christ" appears in the NT story under a consistent code name of "IS XS", James Bond appears under a consistent code name of "007".

Whereas Flemming provides a name behind the code the NT author(s) do not. As a result in antiquity (to return to the OP) it was not the historicity of "Jesus Christ" which may or may not have been challenged. The name of "Jesus Christ" is plastered across all modern translations of the NT but is absent from the earliest manuscript evidence. Rather what may or may not have been challenged is the historicity of the figure known as "IS XS".

Pete, I don't have any Greek so can't debate the Greek words - however, your suggestion regarding the James Bond code word - 007 - that it might suggest, that at one time or another, early christians had some sort of code for referring to gospel Jesus is an interesting idea. With many interpretations of the gospel figure of Jesus perhaps a code word might suffice to keep the growing flock of believers united. How else could the flock of believers stay in tune with one another without some connecting cord, or code word.

Although the precise difference between a 'name' and a 'title' may be open to interpretation, 198 different names and titles of Jesus in the Bible are listed in Cruden's Concordance, first published in 1737, and continuously in print ever since. The first index of the book (following the royal dedications and author's preface) is entitled "A collection of the Names and Titles given to Jesus Christ", with 198 names listed, each accompanied by a biblical reference.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_and ... er%20since.

Academic scholars have constructed a variety of portraits and profiles for Jesus.[39][40][41] Contemporary scholarship places Jesus firmly in the Jewish tradition,[42] and the most prominent understanding of Jesus is as a Jewish apocalyptic prophet or eschatological teacher.[43][note 2] Other portraits are the charismatic healer,[note 3] the Cynic philosopher, the Jewish Messiah, and the prophet of social change.[39][40]note 4.

note 4. In a review of the state of research, Amy-Jill Levine stated that "no single picture of Jesus has convinced all, or even most scholars" and that all portraits of Jesus are subject to criticism by some group of scholars.[46]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... l%20change.

With all the above positions and names for gospel Jesus - a code name would certainly help to keep everyone on side. i.e. whatever ones interpretation of the gospel Jesus - we are all in the same camp united by xyz...as a way to control the spread of diversity in interpretating gospel Jesus. In other words - have your different Jesuses but remember all of them are Jesus. Just as all the various actors playing James Bond are 007....as all Jesus versions are united under some version of xyx - oh well.....

Historical Jesus Theories

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... activities

[lclapshaw]

Now that I think about it - James Bond and Ian Flemming - are a pretty good example of what has happened with the gospel Jesus story. The created literary figure of James Bond has had many actors play the part in movies. As the gospel Jesus historicsts have supplied many versions of their, assumed, historical Jesus figure - seditionist to pacifist - and many more inbetween....

That's a good point. I should add that whereas "Jesus Christ" appears in the NT story under a consistent code name of "IS XS", James Bond appears under a consistent code name of "007".

Whereas Flemming provides a name behind the code the NT author(s) do not. As a result in antiquity (to return to the OP) it was not the historicity of "Jesus Christ" which may or may not have been challenged. The name of "Jesus Christ" is plastered across all modern translations of the NT but is absent from the earliest manuscript evidence. Rather what may or may not have been challenged is the historicity of the figure known as "IS XS".

Bingo! Hard to challenge the historicity of someone when you don't actually know their name.

[Leucius Charinus]

Now that I think about it - James Bond and Ian Flemming - are a pretty good example of what has happened with the gospel Jesus story. The created literary figure of James Bond has had many actors play the part in movies. As the gospel Jesus historicsts have supplied many versions of their, assumed, historical Jesus figure - seditionist to pacifist - and many more inbetween....

That's a good point. I should add that whereas "Jesus Christ" appears in the NT story under a consistent code name of "IS XS", James Bond appears under a consistent code name of "007".

Whereas Flemming provides a name behind the code the NT author(s) do not. As a result in antiquity (to return to the OP) it was not the historicity of "Jesus Christ" which may or may not have been challenged. The name of "Jesus Christ" is plastered across all modern translations of the NT but is absent from the earliest manuscript evidence. Rather what may or may not have been challenged is the historicity of the figure known as "IS XS".

Bingo! Hard to challenge the historicity of someone when you don't actually know their name. :cheers:

PK reckons that the people using these texts knew how to speak the words (and thus the name) associated with these abbreviations.

That hypothesis makes perfect sense with respect to the insiders --- the people using these NT texts. People within the church with sufficient education may well have known how to speak the words (and thus the name) associated with these abbreviations "IS XS" and thus to be able to know "IS XS" was "Jesus Christ". This is a hypothesis based on "oral transmission". And it is likely to be unfalsifiable.

However the greater problem is with those who were not "insiders" of the church texts and who would have had absolutely no idea what the abbreviations "IS XS" represented. In order to historically identify "Jesus Christ" in the texts of the church the "outsiders" had to get the meaning of the words associated with these abbreviations from the "insiders" - those within the church. This should be completely obvious.

Let's leave "007" aside. Suppose Ian Flemming's books mention "IS BD" but not "James Bond" and a small little known cult was formed about these books. If "IS BD" was an historical figure then it follows that the insiders to the identity of "IS BD" would be people within British Secret Service department of MI6. These people alone would have sufficient education (and security clearance) to know that the historical "IS BD" was the historical James Bond.

However those who were outsiders to MI6 would have absolutely no idea who the historical "IS BD" was. Interested investigators would have to turn to the elite members of MI6 as an authoritative source for the identity and history of "IS BD". The outsiders would have to turn to the insiders.

What could possibly go wrong?

[maryhelena]

Now that I think about it - James Bond and Ian Flemming - are a pretty good example of what has happened with the gospel Jesus story. The created literary figure of James Bond has had many actors play the part in movies. As the gospel Jesus historicsts have supplied many versions of their, assumed, historical Jesus figure - seditionist to pacifist - and many more inbetween....

That's a good point. I should add that whereas "Jesus Christ" appears in the NT story under a consistent code name of "IS XS", James Bond appears under a consistent code name of "007".

Whereas Flemming provides a name behind the code the NT author(s) do not. As a result in antiquity (to return to the OP) it was not the historicity of "Jesus Christ" which may or may not have been challenged. The name of "Jesus Christ" is plastered across all modern translations of the NT but is absent from the earliest manuscript evidence. Rather what may or may not have been challenged is the historicity of the figure known as "IS XS".

Bingo! Hard to challenge the historicity of someone when you don't actually know their name.

PK reckons that the people using these texts knew how to speak the words (and thus the name) associated with these abbreviations.

That hypothesis makes perfect sense with respect to the insiders --- the people using these NT texts. People within the church with sufficient education may well have known how to speak the words (and thus the name) associated with these abbreviations "IS XS" and thus to be able to know "IS XS" was "Jesus Christ". This is a hypothesis based on "oral transmission". And it is likely to be unfalsifiable.

However the greater problem is with those who were not "insiders" of the church texts and who would have had absolutely no idea what the abbreviations "IS XS" represented. In order to historically identify "Jesus Christ" in the texts of the church the "outsiders" had to get the meaning of the words associated with these abbreviations from the "insiders" - those within the church. This should be completely obvious.

Let's leave "007" aside. Suppose Ian Flemming's books mention "IS BD" but not "James Bond" and a small little known cult was formed about these books. If "IS BD" was an historical figure then it follows that the insiders to the identity of "IS BD" would be people within British Secret Service department of MI6. These people alone would have sufficient education (and security clearance) to know that the historical "IS BD" was the historical James Bond.

However those who were outsiders to MI6 would have absolutely no idea who the historical "IS BD" was. Interested investigators would have to turn to the elite members of MI6 as an authoritative source for the identity and history of "IS BD". The outsiders would have to turn to the insiders.

What could possibly go wrong?

Interesting....

007 = James Bond
James Bond = ? A composite or a compound figure. Hence a literary figure reflecting various historical figures.

Maybe the Jesus Christ code (if that is what it is) has more going for it than X = Y.

Fleming based his fictional creation on a number of individuals he came across during his time in the Naval Intelligence Division and 30 Assault Unit during the Second World War, admitting that Bond "was a compound of all the secret agents and commando types I met during the war".[2] Among those types were his brother, Peter, who had been involved in behind-the-lines operations in Norway and Greece during the war.[3] Aside from Fleming's brother, a number of others also provided some aspects of Bond's make up, including Conrad O'Brien-ffrench, Patrick Dalzel-Job, Bill "Biffy" Dunderdale and Duško Popov.[2][4]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Fleming

So... to really understand how Fleming created James Bond one might investigate the historical characters that Fleming drew upon.

So.... code = Jesus Christ =. Jesus = a literary figure reflecting various historical individuals used by the creators of the gospel figure. Rather than creating a coat of many colours for gospel Jesus.... rebel Jesus, miracle Jesus, apocalyptic Jesus etc..... consider Doherty....

Earl Doherty

"I can well acknowledge that elements of several representative, historical figures fed into the myth of the Gospel Jesus, since even mythical characters can only be portrayed in terms of human personalities, especially ones from their own time that are familiar and pertinent to the writers of the myths."

[lclapshaw]

Now that I think about it - James Bond and Ian Flemming - are a pretty good example of what has happened with the gospel Jesus story. The created literary figure of James Bond has had many actors play the part in movies. As the gospel Jesus historicsts have supplied many versions of their, assumed, historical Jesus figure - seditionist to pacifist - and many more inbetween....

That's a good point. I should add that whereas "Jesus Christ" appears in the NT story under a consistent code name of "IS XS", James Bond appears under a consistent code name of "007".

Whereas Flemming provides a name behind the code the NT author(s) do not. As a result in antiquity (to return to the OP) it was not the historicity of "Jesus Christ" which may or may not have been challenged. The name of "Jesus Christ" is plastered across all modern translations of the NT but is absent from the earliest manuscript evidence. Rather what may or may not have been challenged is the historicity of the figure known as "IS XS".

Bingo! Hard to challenge the historicity of someone when you don't actually know their name.

PK reckons that the people using these texts knew how to speak the words (and thus the name) associated with these abbreviations.

That hypothesis makes perfect sense with respect to the insiders --- the people using these NT texts. People within the church with sufficient education may well have known how to speak the words (and thus the name) associated with these abbreviations "IS XS" and thus to be able to know "IS XS" was "Jesus Christ". This is a hypothesis based on "oral transmission". And it is likely to be unfalsifiable.

However the greater problem is with those who were not "insiders" of the church texts and who would have had absolutely no idea what the abbreviations "IS XS" represented. In order to historically identify "Jesus Christ" in the texts of the church the "outsiders" had to get the meaning of the words associated with these abbreviations from the "insiders" - those within the church. This should be completely obvious.

Let's leave "007" aside. Suppose Ian Flemming's books mention "IS BD" but not "James Bond" and a small little known cult was formed about these books. If "IS BD" was an historical figure then it follows that the insiders to the identity of "IS BD" would be people within British Secret Service department of MI6. These people alone would have sufficient education (and security clearance) to know that the historical "IS BD" was the historical James Bond.

However those who were outsiders to MI6 would have absolutely no idea who the historical "IS BD" was. Interested investigators would have to turn to the elite members of MI6 as an authoritative source for the identity and history of "IS BD". The outsiders would have to turn to the insiders.

What could possibly go wrong?

Well, we know for a fact that there is an organization named MI6 that has insiders we could consult about the real or fictional nature of an IS BD, can we say the same about possible "Church" insiders? If the information we have is just popular fiction and the "Church" of the first two centuries just made up, everything goes out the window.

[StephenGoranson]

Whether you could, if they let you, talk to MI6, but you cannot speak with ancient Christians, so?
They knew who it referred to.
If you have a different, alternate, reading, what is that?

[lclapshaw]

Whether you could, if they let you, talk to MI6, but you cannot speak with ancient Christians, so?
They knew who it referred to.
If you have a different, alternate, reading, what is that?

The whole thing is simply popular fiction. The "Church", IC, the letters, the Apostles... all of it. Fiction.

That's all. Simple, really.

[StephenGoranson]

I know you say that, but haven't demonstrated it, nor much bothered to support it.