Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

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Giuseppe
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

No, I don't close my shop, I make it even more great, by mentioning directly Reinach in another article where he proves that the opponents were anti-Christians:

IGNATIUS, BISHOP OF ANTIOCH, AND THE APXEIA
by S. Reinach
Tapakara δὲ ὑμᾶς, μηδὲν kar ἐρίθειαν πράσσετε ἀλλὰ κατὰ χριστομαθίαν. ἐπεὶ ἠκουσά τινων λεγόντων ὅτι ᾿Βὰν μὴ ἐν τοῖς ἀρχείοις εὕρω, ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ οὐ πιστεύω" καὶ λέγοντός μου αὐτοῖς ὅτι Γέγραπται, ἀπεκρίθησάν μοι ὅτι Τρόκειται. ἐμοὶ δὲ ἀρχεῖά ἐστιν ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστός, τὰ ἄθικτα ἀρχεῖα ὁ σταῦρος αὐτοῦ καὶ ὁ θάνατος καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις αὐτοῦ καὶ ἡ πίστις ἡ δι αὐτοῦ" ἐν οἷς θέλω ἐν τῇ προσευχῇ ὑμῶν δικαιωθῆναι. —Ignatius, Epist. ad Philadelph., § 8.

The article ἀρχεῖον, in the Estienne-Didot Thesaurus, was revised by L. Dindorf, by no means a theologian, but who knew Greek. The second section of the article, with the meaning archivum, tabularium, is headed by a quotation from the above passage of Ignatius inserted by Dindorf: “ Epist. ad Philadelph., n. 8 : Ἐὰν μὴ ἐν τοῖς ἀρχείοις εὕρω, ἐν TO εὐαγγελίῳ ov πιστεύω. Dindorf did not even suppose that the plural τὰ ἀρχεῖα could be considered, not by some but by almost all theologians, as an equivalent of “the Old Testament,” παλαιὰ διαθήκη.

That mistake, which is the result of an exegetical tendency, has reappeared quite recently in an article about Ignatius; I quote the passage :

‘ Aux gens qui lui disaient (a Ignace) : “ Ce gue je ne trouve bas dans les archives” —c'est a dire dans les Ecritures de I Ancten Testament,—“ je n'y crois pas dans [ Evangile” ; Ignace a répondu : “ C'est écrit,’ mais ils ont contesté sa démonstration, disant : “ C'est a prouver” ; quant a lui, ses archives sont “Jésus-Christ, archives inviolables que sa croix, sa mort, sa résurrection, la foi qui vient de lui'

If Ignatius had meant ‘ Scripture’ in setting forth the objection of the unbeliever, Loisy’s interpretation, which is the current one, would cause him to say: ‘My Old Testament is Jesus Christ, His cross, etc,’ which makes bald nonsense.

Though having combated the current explanation in 1912, I think it necessary to do so once more, appealing not only to the scholarship, but to the bona fides of my readers.

The unbeliever said to the bishop: “What I do not find in archives, the facts you recite about Jesus Christ, I will not admit them when they are stated by your gospel.”—« But,” answers the bishop, “those facts have been prophesied in the Old Testament.” “That’s no proof,” objects the unbeliever, “it is begging the question.” ‘Then the bishop gets angry, gives us to understand that he cares nought for official documents as stored up in tabularia and that he relies on his own spiritual archives, which are his faith.

In the article to which I refer in the footnote, I have gone into more particulars and shown how my interpretation is consistent with other passages of Ignatius, especially with that of Ephesians, §. xix.
“Now the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also her offspring, and the death of the Lord.”

As Ignatius cannot possibly have been informed by the prince of this world, and as we cannot accuse him of writing nonsense, we feel compelled to admit that he means the worldly powers, the authorities, all more or less subject to the Devil, and that what they are said to have ignored is precisely what has been sought for in vain by wicked unbelievers in the tabularia. When the famous French doctrinaire, Royer-Collard, spoke his well known phrase : “ Rien n'est béte comme un fait,” he was, like Ignatius, but with less excuse, in an anti-scientific mood.

https://ia601304.us.archive.org/7/items ... 00robi.pdf
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:53 amNo, I don't close my shop
I would never just assume that you would abandon an argument you've made when there is no evidence for it.
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:53 amI make it even more great, by mentioning directly Reinach in another article where he proves that the opponents were anti-Christians
Reinach doesn't prove that.
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:53 am
the plural τὰ ἀρχεῖα could be considered, not by some but by almost all theologians, as an equivalent of “the Old Testament,” παλαιὰ διαθήκη

If Reinach has properly understood what others are saying, then he is engaged in a game of misrepresentation in order to deliver his argument when he uses the phrase "an equivalent." He proceeds to test what is said by "almost all theologians" by plugging in the phrase “the Old Testament” for τὰ ἀρχεῖα as though it were "an equivalent" phrase in Greek.

Yet we have already seen from Schoedel (who wrote later) and Lightfoot (who wrote before Reinach) that they do not believe that the phrase "τὰ ἀρχεῖα" was an equivalent in Greek to “the Old Testament,” παλαιὰ διαθήκη. Two different Greek phrases that are not equivalent can sometimes have the same referent and sometimes a different referent. So the position, which is misrepresented here, is that Ignatius is referring to what his opponents consider to be in τὰ ἀρχεῖα in the first reference to the phrase. Ignatius still has to agree with his opponents that such a reference regarding the Old Testament is appropriate, which is why he would attempt to argue on the basis of scripture with them, only to be rebuffed by them disagreeing with the attempts to make the argument from scripture.

More devoted readers of Reinach can try to determine whether he misunderstands what he is attempting to refute or simply doesn't care that he is misrepresenting it. Reinach prevaricates:

If Ignatius had meant ‘Scripture’ in setting forth the objection of the unbeliever, Loisy’s interpretation, which is the current one, would cause him to say: ‘My Old Testament is Jesus Christ, His cross, etc,’ which makes bald nonsense.

As we know, the phrases are not simply equivalent, so Ignatius can first refer to his opponents mentioning "the archives" in one way, then refer to himself mentioning the "archives" or "the inviolable archives" in another way. Every interpretation acknowledges this. Loisy himself was no slouch and could not have been impressed by the little game played by Reinach here, who disrespects himself and his reader with this so-called proof.
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Peter Kirby »

William R. Schoedel suggests that Ignatius had difficulty refuting his opponents solely from the OT (Ignatius of Antioch, p. 209):

... it is still a challenge to the bishop's assertion that he can find what he wants in the OT. Evidently he was having difficulty in establishing his point from that quarter. (5) Consequently, Ignatius appeals to an even higher authority. For him the "archives" are Jesus Christ himself; or (as he rephrases it) the "inviolable archives" are "his cross and death and his resurrection and faith through him."

J. B. Lightfoot writes of its introduction with ἐμοὶ δὲ by Ignatius (The Apostolic Fathers, part II, volume 2, p. 273):

ἐμοὶ δὲ κ.τ.λ.] i.e.. ‘Though I have condescended to argue, though I have accepted their appeal to the Old Testament Scriptures, yet to myself such an appeal is superfluous: Jesus Christ is the archives; He contains in Himself the documentary proofs of His person and mission’: comp. Clem. Recogn. i. 59 ‘non ideo credendum esse Jesu, quia de eo prophetae praedixerint, sed ideo magis credendum esse prophetis, quod vere prophetae sint, quia eis testimonium Christus reddat, etc.’

William R. Schoedel footnoted Reinach when mentioning "misguided efforts to find here a reference to actual city archives."
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:23 am A) the fact that Ignatius refers to scriptures (by answering 'it is written') doesn't affect minimally on the content of the 'archives' referred by the his enemies. At contrary, there is even the concrete possibility that the 'archives' (of the accusation) are not the same scriptures meant by Ignatius (in the answer), because otherwise Ignatius would be denying the result of the search just done by the his opponents in the same archives. It would be equivalent to a discussion where a guy says: "I don't find the term in the English dictionary". And the other guy answers: "it is in the English dictionary". But it is clear that Ignatius is going to concede to his adversaries that their research in the archives was intellectually honest: in the archives there was no mention of Jesus at all. Only so it is explained why the last desperate defence of Ignatius was the blind fideism: "for me the archive is Jesus. Period".

B) as noted independently by both DCH and S. Reinach, the term 'archives' included public memories for the vast majority of the cases. In order to argue the contrary, strong evidence is required: but a such evidence of the contrary is not found in the immediate context of Philadelphians 8, therefore I am titled to the moral certainty that 'archives' here refers to public memories in the broadest sense of the term (profane and religious memories).
(A) It does because it means the only context we have for knowing what the "archives" pertained to was the Old Testament scriptures. And again, I love that you keep dancing around that the Latin translation of this passage, translaves "archives" as "scriptures." It basically makes your case moot.

(B) As I noted above, there is no evidence it is being used in such a way here. The term archives was used by Christians and Jews to refer to Hebrew scriptures, and as a result, until you provide clear and precise evidence that it means anything but that, your case is nothing but conjecture and guesswork, especially since Ignatius' reference to "it is written" clearly denotes he has the Old Testament in mind. There is no evidence to suggest "archives" means anything here but the Old Testament. Until you prove otherwise, it is irrelevant whether they were anti-Christian opponents or not.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

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Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:31 am Yet we have already seen from Schoedel (who wrote later) and Lightfoot (who wrote before Reinach) that they do not believe that the phrase "τὰ ἀρχεῖα" was an equivalent in Greek to “the Old Testament,” παλαιὰ διαθήκη.
which is the typical fallacy of the distinction without a real difference.

Do you think that the archives are not the "Old Testament" but the Jewish scriptures ?

Well, then, I may confute your argument along the same lines of Reinach and say:
If Ignatius had meant ‘old Jewish scriptures’ in setting forth the objection of the unbeliever, Loisy’s interpretation, which is the current one, would cause him to say: ‘My old Jewish scripture is Jesus Christ, His cross, etc,’ which makes bald nonsense.

Peter, can you give me an example of an old Jewish scripture that is not "Old Testament"? The Book of Enoch? Is Ignatius denying that the Son of Man in Enoch is not a prophecy of Jesus?

Reinach is right: your position, i.e. the Loisy's position, is bald nonsense.
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

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Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:35 pm Do you think that the archives are not the "Old Testament" but the Jewish scriptures ?
No. Here you have fallen into the same error as Reinach of misrepresenting what you're reading.
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

Chrissy Hansen wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:27 pm, I love that you keep dancing around that the Latin translation of this passage, translaves "archives" as "scriptures." It basically makes your case moot
so, according to your logic, the book titled "Antiquities" of Josephus includes only Jewish holy scriptures and not also chronicles of the history of the Jewish people. What could be the "scriptures" deposited in the archives if not public memories of the remote and recent past?
Chrissy Hansen wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:27 pm There is no evidence to suggest "archives" means anything here but the Old Testament. Until you prove otherwise, it is irrelevant whether they were anti-Christian opponents or not.
thank you, since you are making the Reinach's argument contra Peter Kirby, who has just denied in his latter post that the archives are "Old Testament". So the paradox is that Ignatius is answering: for me the Old Testament is Jesus. Only Marcion could answer rightly so. Not coincidentially, the title of the recent book of the prof Markus Vinzent is: Christ's Torah. Which for an orthodox like Ignatius should be an oxymoron.
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

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Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:38 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:35 pm Do you think that the archives are not the "Old Testament" but the Jewish scriptures ?
No. Here you have fallen into the same error as Reinach of misrepresenting what you're reading.
in whiletime you have not answered to my question: please show an example of a holy Jewish book that doesn't figure in the Old Testament. Enoch?
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:47 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:38 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:35 pm Do you think that the archives are not the "Old Testament" but the Jewish scriptures ?
No. Here you have fallen into the same error as Reinach of misrepresenting what you're reading.
in whiletime you have not answered to my question: please show an example of a holy Jewish book that doesn't figure in the Old Testament.
I already said that what you have offered is a misrepresentation. It is incredible that you would ask me anything based on a misrepresentation.
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

In response to your last comment to me: No that is not what I said. It is always evident that you are grasping at straws when you don't bother representing what we say correctly and go on wild tangents.

And your second paragraph is incomprehensible.
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