Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:31 am
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:42 pm Why is this important (replying to Joseph D L)? Because I am tired to hear the apologetical motive that none doubted about the historicity of Jesus in the Antiquity.
It will be difficult to change the conversation if your focus when you write is truly only about convincing yourself.
In whiletime I assume that also you have to recognize that the your accusation of misinterpretation against Reinach is totally unfounded. Both Reinach and Schoedel recognize that the equation "archives == Old Testament" implies an opposition in Ignatius between old and new. For Schoedel a such opposition is ok on the mouth of Ignatius, even before Marcion. For Reinach the same opposition would be ok only if Ignatius comes after Marcion.

For me, to this point, the question is reduced to the question of knowing when Ignatius has to be dated, if before or after Marcion.

The irony of the case is similar to the Pauline Question:
  • If Paul is genuine, then Richard Carrier is justified to base his mythicist case on the priority of the epistles over the gospels, since the chronology is the key of the problem, and the genuine epistles bear historical value.
  • If Paul is fabricated, then we don't know nothing at all about the solution of the problem of the historicity of Jesus. Nothing at all.
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DCHindley
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by DCHindley »

Hey Joseph,

Glad to see you back!

I think what Giuseppe has in mind is this passage in The Epistle to the Tarsians:
Chapter III.—The true doctrine respecting Christ.

Mindful of him, do ye by all means know that Jesus the Lord was truly born of Mary,
being made of a woman; and was as truly crucified. For, says he, 'God forbid that I should
glory, save in the cross of the Lord Jesus' (Gal. vi. 14). And He really suffered, and died, and rose
again. (ANF vol 1)
The problem is, this is preserved (I believe) only in Latin, and there is no Greek recension, longer or shorter, to compare it to. Most of the others have Greek equivalents in either the shorter or the longer Greek recensions, or both.

This suggests that, at the time that this pseudepigrapha was written, in Latin, someone was claiming that Jesus the Lord was not born by a woman, even Mary, or that Jesus did not really die under Pontius Pilate. This sounds like a response to Marcion claiming Jesus had no material human body and Docetists who claimed his death was just an illusion. I do not recall off the top of my head whether Marcion also claimed that Jesus had only appeared to suffer on the cross. This would then not be a sign that there was doubt about the timing and main characters of the story, but whether it was just an illusionary or a real death.

DCH
Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 2:20 pm Giuseppe, are you saying that Ignatius is a witness to people who denied the historicity of Jesus?

For one thing, if he is I don't see how that is an argument in favour of mythicism because the two, historicity and mythicism, are relatably different and demand two different categories of evidence to prove or disprove. Disbelief does not automatically equate to right or wrong.

Secondly, when would this denial come about? Only after Christianity appeared, which presupposes a historical Jesus, and which sceptics would admittedly acknowledge as self evident. So it seems to me that in trying to prove the unhistoricity of Jesus your argument here depends on a historical Jesus if only rhetorical.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

DCHindley wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:31 am
I think what Giuseppe has in mind is this passage in The Epistle to the Tarsians
No, I mean this (even if your quoted passage is considered by Earl Doherty evidence that well more than mere docetists are in view by Ignatius):

When I heard some saying, If I do not find [mention of Jesus] in the archives, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written [in the Old Testament], they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is the archive. His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity; by which I desire, through your prayers, to be justified.

(Epistle to the Philadelphians)
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Anything can be about the historicity of Jesus as long as you (A) ignore the interpolations, and (B) insert "mention of Jesus" in brackets, and just presume all your assumptions are correct.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

Chrissy Hansen wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:47 am Anything can be about the historicity of Jesus as long as you (A) ignore the interpolations, and (B) insert "mention of Jesus" in brackets, and just presume all your assumptions are correct.
Since you seem to be even unable to understand the argument raised by Solomon Reinach (about the impossibility of an Ignatius talking as Marcion before Marcion) then everything said by you here is condemned to the absence of further answers by myself.
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Anyone who thinks that it is impossible for someone to sound like another person, has simply no idea what diversity exists. Also, even if my theory is right, nothing indicates Ignatius is dissing the OT. And I legitimately could not care less what Reinach says, because what you are arguing is so based only in unjustified assumptions that if that is what Reinach argues, then Reinach isn't worth taking seriously on the issue to begin with.
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

(Reinach was not a professor. He was a curator at museums)

Also good luck with that withdrawal. No one is convinced here G.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

I am listing all the references by Reinach to the archives mentioned by Ignatius.
This is the first:

34. Bishop Ignatius of Antioch, in a very obscure phrase, wrote, about 110 a.d., against certain people who declared:
“What we do not find in the [Roman?] archives, we cannot accept in the Gospel.”

This seems to be the first allusion to critical research, about which we regret to know nothing more.
35. A very old Christian sect, that of the Docetes, contended that Jesus had been but a phantom, that he had only assumed the semblance of a body—and this, exclaimed St. Jerome, when the blood of Jesus was not yet dry in Judaea! The great antiquity of the sect is confirmed by two letters attributed to St. John, which are partly directed against Docetism, and perhaps also by the passage in the fourth Gospel (xx, 24) concerning the unbelief of St. Thomas. Works by Docetes have not come down to us, and we have no adequate knowledge of their tenets. One thing, however, is certain: the so-called extreme Docetes denied the Crucifixion. Irenaeus ( c. 180 A.n.) says that the heretic Basilides (c. 125) related the Crucifixion as follows: “Simon of Cyrene was crucified by mistake and Jesus himself took the form of Simon and stood by and laughed at the executioners.” Foolish as that may be, the Manicheans maintained it, and the formula of abjuration which they were invited to sign ran thus: “I anathematize those who say that our Lord only suffered in appearance, and that there was a man on the cross and another one at a distance who laughed because the former suffered in his place.” Indeed, several apocryphal writings of early Christianity are tainted with the same belief, which may have not been unknown to the author of the second Gospel (xv, 21).* *‘And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.” This seems to be an appeal to two witnesses who said (in Rome?) that Simon had carried the cross, but not that he had been crucified instead of Jesus, as maintained by Basilides and no doubt others before him.

36. The uncertainty and legendary character of the Christian tradition concerning Jesus does not warrant, however, an expression of radical disbelief. The first trace of such extreme criticism appeared in Lord Bolingbroke’s free-thinking circle (c. ITSO). Voltaire censured it, but not so Volney and Dupuis, two French scholars of the latter part of the eighteenth century, who considered the Christ of history as a solar myth. This explains why Napoleon, meeting Wieland in 1808, asked him if he believed in the existence of Jesus. The same scepticism was put forward, but on so- called historical grounds, by the German critic Bruno Bauer (1842), who attributed the Gospel story to one forger, and later on, as a result of comparative mythology and folklore, by many writers, Robertson, Benj. Smith, Drews, Couchoud, etc. However, the best liberal theologians of our age never consented to go so far, though admitting that, except the death of Jesus, there was much more legend than history in the Gospel narrative. (p. 245-246)

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Giuseppe
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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

This is the second reference by Reinach to the archives of Ignatius:

Saint Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, writing about the year 110, says that the birth and death of Jesus were unknown to Satan, prince of this world; he also talks about certain people who made this objection to him:
“What I do not find in the archives, I do not believe in the Gospel.”

We have taken great pains to misunderstand these texts, which are certainly very singular; but they must be accepted as they are in the manuscripts and interpreted in good faith. It seems clear from this that the Bishop of Antioch had to fight against contradictors inspired by the Devil who, searching in the public archives for testimonies on the birth and death of Jesus, declared that they had not discovered any. Ignatius only responds to them with pious sentences; after him, from the first half of the 11th century, fakes were made to silence them.

The original French:

39. Saint Ignace, évêque d'Antioche, écrivant vers l'am 110, dit que la naissance et la mort de Jésus ont été ignorées de Satan, prince de ce monde; il parle aussi de certaines gens qui lui auraient fait cette objection :
«Ce que je ne trouve pas dans les archives, je ne le crois pas dans l'Évangile.»

On s'est donné bien du mal pour comprendre de travers ces textes, assurément bien singuliers; mais il faut les accepter tels qu'ils sont dans les manuscrits et les interpréter de bonne foi. Il paraît bien en ressortir que l'évêque d'Antioche avait eu à lutter contre des contradicteurs inspirés du Diable qui, cherchant dans les archives publiques des témoignages sur la naissance et la mort de Jésus, déclaraient n'en point découvrir. Ignace ne leur répond que par des phrases pieuses; après lui, dès la première moitié du 11^ siècle, on fabriquera des faux pour les faire taire.

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Re: Further evidence that Ignatius faced old deniers of the historicity of Jesus

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 7:45 am I am expecting an official withdrawal by Peter Kirby to see if he has given up finally to accuse Reinach of having misinterpreted Loisy by replacing 'archives' with 'Old Testament'
You haven't demonstrated that you understand the difficulties with Reinach's argument. The last relevant thing you said on that subject is that you didn't understand what I'm saying here. To be able to argue against what I said, you would need to be able to give a full summary of what I said and its most important points. You haven't given a full summary of what I said or argued against the most important points of what I said.
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:58 amIn whiletime I assume that also you have to recognize that the your accusation of misinterpretation against Reinach is totally unfounded.
Did what Loisy write present the claim that would have to be presented to provide all the sufficient conditions for Reinach's argument? No. Does providing an interpretation of what someone writes that isn't present there but allows you to argue against it as though they had made an indefensible statement, which they didn't actually make, a matter of misrepresentation? Sure. If Loisy actually did make the kind of claim required (which he did not), does anyone have to defend it? Obviously not. In the context of our conversation, what's most relevant for you to consider is what I have said on the subject matter.
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