Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

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Giuseppe
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Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by Giuseppe »

On at least two things:
  • 1) I am not so sure that proto-Mark was the Earliest Gospel. The doubts in such sense are too much strong, without that I am able to give a totally valid alternative under the *Ev's priority (meaning that I am not sure how much a proto-Mark debtly purified by some anti-marcionite items — the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptism, the Parable of the Vineyard, the answer 'I am' in 14:61, etc — could be still a valid alternative to *Ev's priority).
But the divergence above is only a purely abstract question, since I agree with Bruno Bauer about the idea that Jesus never existed as a historical man (meaning that the historicist virus was sown the first time only by the earliest proto-Gospel).

Where the divergence is more serious is when Bruno Bauer writes:

But when I say and provide evidence that the holy writers depict in their creations “the inner movements and experiences, the trials and struggles of the community,” when I designate the self-perception and self-consciousness of the community as the raw material of those creations, when I demonstrate that the holy artists derived the material they processed and shaped in their creations from their own inner being, which was so rich and vast that in its vibrations and struggles it reproduced the inner life of their world and condensed it into personal self-perception, into personal passion—

Thus, I do not rely on tradition—(tradition in Strauss’s sense)—”going back,” but rather on the historical substance that the holy writers shaped—the actual substance that was processed in their work and became the soul of a new world, not the chimerical substance that, according to the Tradition Hypothesis, merely reappears in the copy that the writers captured from it.

( my bold)

Note that Robert M. Price resumed perfectly the Bauer's view in his review:

The casual reader will surely conclude that Bauer spends altogether too much time on the Caesars and not enough on Christian origins, but the while point of the book is that the Christ figure is not so much the historical incarnation of the divine Spirit as the literary incarnation of the Zeitgeist.

(my bold)


Hence I can explain better the following difference:
  • 2) Bruno Bauer thinks that the proto-Gospel is a mere product of the self-perception of the community, but a such view assumes that the community didn't need a previous myth of Jesus that had to be historicized by the proto-Gospel: according to Bruno Bauer's logic, it was sufficient the persecution of the community (think about the Roman and/or Jewish persecutions of the Christians, or about the crucifixion en masse of rebel Jews in the 70 CE), to move the proto-Gospel to talk about a "crucifixion of Jesus". The basic idea of Bruno Bauer is that even the "crucifixion event" can be read explicitly in the real HIstory, by seeing it in the persecution of the community (beyond if a sectarian or national community). The corollary is that the community was totally connected with the world of the outsiders even as to the symbolism of the "crucifixion of Jesus".
    At contrary, I think that, even if a lot of Gospel details come directly indeed from the self-perception of the community, the central idea of a Jesus walking and healing, and the central idea of a crucified Jesus, derived from the previous myth of a god Jesus descending through the heavens to die in the lower heavens (outer space). The corollary is that the community was separated sharply from the world of the outsiders at least as to the hidden symbolism of the "crucifixion of Jesus". The secret knowledge of the insiders, the fact that only the first evangelist knew that really Jesus was crucified in outer space and not on the earth, couldn't be a product of a mere relation between the community of the evangelist and the external world of the outsiders. It couldn't be read in the history of the community. It was not an allegory of a suffering sect or nation. It was the raw material of a previous myth virtually unknown to outsiders and preached only to insiders.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by Giuseppe »

The paradox is that I agree, as a mythicist, with the historicist Albert Schweitzer about the appreciation of the first works of Bruno Bauer (respectively and in primis: Critique of the Gospel History, and Criticism of the Gospels and History of their Origin, contra the his last works (Theological Explanation of the Gospels and Christ and the Caesars).

Differently from the apologist Albert Schweitzer, however, I suspend humbly the judgement on the Bruno Bauer's Criticism of the Pauline Letters.
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by dabber »

Question as a mythicist - how do you explain JC in Mark saying he'll be back in the lifetime of some standing there?

Surely this failed prophecy meant Mark must have been c. 30 ce + 40-50 years = 70-80 ce?

It has to be >70 ce cause of the little apocalypse.

The author couldn't possibly deliberately write a failed prophecy into his work?! :D That makes zero sense.

So suggest there has to be an early proto Mark, 100%

Here's another one :) Celsus didn't think JC was a myth. Surely he'd know as talked to Jews in Palestine. And he was totally independent free thinker. If JC was a myth he would have said so. Thanks
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Giuseppe
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by Giuseppe »

Answer to first point) the author could be himself a failed apocalypticist, or the irony is that the miracle happened only a verse after (the Transfiguration episode).

Answer to the second point) "Ignatius" is evidence that the Christians couldn't find nothing in the archives (= public memories) that could prove even only a bit of the gospel:

When I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the archives, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is the archive. His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity; by which I desire, through your prayers, to be justified.

(Epistle to the Philadelphians)
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:57 amAnswer to the second point) "Ignatius" is evidence that the Christians couldn't find nothing in the archives (= public memories) that could prove even only a bit of the gospel:

When I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the archives, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is the archive. His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity; by which I desire, through your prayers, to be justified.

(Epistle to the Philadelphians)
Ignatius wrote "If I do not find it in the archives". He is referring to the "doctrine of Christ". According to the Roberts Donaldson translation:

And I exhort you to do nothing out of strife, but according to the doctrine of Christ. When I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved.

So it is an argument about whether the doctrine of Christ can be found in the ancient texts, not about Christ himself.

We can see something similar in Acts:

Acts.17

[1] Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
[2] And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
[3] Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
[4] And some of them believed...
...
[10] And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
[12] Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Last edited by GakuseiDon on Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by Giuseppe »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:04 pm So it is an argument about whether the doctrine of Christ can be found in the ancient texts, not about Christ himself.
even when Ignatius says that "the archive is Jesus Christ" himself? How can "Jesus Christ" be a doctrine in this case, when mention is made of archives (=public memories)?

"It" is the fulfillment of prophecies. Since the entire gospel is a midrash on scriptures sold (fraudolently) as fulfillment of prophecies, then the enemies of Ignatius were questioning everything is said in the gospel. Not only portions of it, but all of it.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by Giuseppe »

In addition:
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:04 pm Ignatius wrote "If I do not find it in the archives".
how can the doctrine of Christ be found in the public chronicles ? Can you imagine Josephus who talked about the Christian belief but not about Jesus Christ? :D
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:12 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:04 pm So it is an argument about whether the doctrine of Christ can be found in the ancient texts, not about Christ himself.
even when Ignatius says that "the archive is Jesus Christ" himself? How can "Jesus Christ" be a doctrine in this case, when mention is made of archives (=public memories)?
How can Jesus Christ be actual "archives", if you want to argue down that road? See what Ignatius wrote:

"His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity; by which I desire, through your prayers, to be justified."

Ignatius, IMO, is arguing that Christ's crucifixion, death and resurrection can be found predicted in the ancient Scriptures, if only his critics would look hard enough. His critics remained unconvinced.
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:12 pm"It" is the fulfillment of prophecies. Since the entire gospel is a midrash on scriptures sold (fraudolently) as fulfillment of prophecies, then the enemies of Ignatius were questioning everything is said in the gospel. Not only portions of it, but all of it.
I agree that "it" is the fulfillment of prophecies that Ignatius believed were in the OT: crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ. As Ignatius writes:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

And let us also love the prophets, because they too have proclaimed the Gospel, and placed their hope in Him, and waited for Him; in whom also believing, they were saved, through union to Jesus Christ, being holy men, worthy of love and admiration, having had witness borne to them by Jesus Christ...

So the argument has nothing to do with the existence of Jesus from what I can see.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:17 pm In addition:
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:04 pm Ignatius wrote "If I do not find it in the archives".
how can the doctrine of Christ be found in the public chronicles ?
Depends on what was meant by "archives". For example, did it exclude the OT and/or Septuagint, in your opinion?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

Post by Giuseppe »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:38 pm
Ignatius, IMO, is arguing that Christ's crucifixion, death and resurrection can be found predicted in the ancient Scriptures.
you are using the wrong translation. The Greek text reads arxeia, i.e. archives, public memories, not holy texts. Think about the sources used by Josephus to write Antiquities.
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