Meaning of παραδοθῆναι?

[rgprice]

In Mark 1 we are told that after Jesus is baptized the Spirit drives "him" into the wilderness, where he is tempted by Satan, and then John is "delivered up". Most translations say something here like "taken to prison" or something along those lines.

YLT:

12 And immediately doth the Spirit put him forth to the wilderness,
13 and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him.

14 And after the delivering up [παραδοθῆναι] of John, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of the reign of God,
15 and saying -- `Fulfilled hath been the time, and the reign of God hath come nigh, reform ye, and believe in the good news.'

But what does παραδοθῆναι really mean and how was it used outside of the Bible? The only translations of the word I can find all come from Biblical usages. It apparently occurs just once in the LXX meaning something like "move away": https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... E%B1%CE%B9

I'm convinced that it was John who was driven into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan here, not Jesus. And that the "delivering up" of John is referring to the "delivering up" of John to Satan.

First of all, the claim that John was being "taken away" comes out of nowhere in the traditional reading of Mark. Jesus was baptized by John, then he's driven into the wilderness, then the next thing we hear, with no explanation is that John was taken away.

But this is resolved if instead what the story says is that Jesus was baptized and then John was driven into the wilderness, and thus after John had been driven away Jesus started proclaiming his message. Then the statement that John had been "driven away" concludes the driving of John into the wilderness, so now this claim doesn't come out of nowhere.

But, it would be helpful here to have a better understanding of what παραδοθῆναι really meant in Greek and how it could be interpreted, outside of Biblical examples. From this context, I would like to be able to interpret it as "driven away". Is that a valid interpretation?

[StephenGoranson]

"....I would like to be able to interpret it as...."
red flag?

[Secret Alias]

Not around here. It means "welcome to the club." I hear Peter is going to rename the forum "the Cart before the Horse" forum. Our new logo apparently:

[MrMacSon]

παραδοθῆναι - paradothēnai - is also in Luke 24:7 - https://biblehub.com/greek/paradothe_nai_3860.htm

That webpage refers to Strongs 3860 - παραδίδωμι - paradidómi - https://biblehub.com/greek/3860.htm

• all uses of παραδίδωμι - paradidómi - seem to be in G.Matthew
• there are many other occurrences of other versions

παραδοθῆναι is listed in a drop-down table on this page https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/παραδίδωμι#Ancient_Greek

• under Inflection, subheading Aorist : click on [show ▼] on the right-hand side
  
  That table indicates it is second-plural passive infinitive (?)
  
  n.b. the entries for Luke 24:7 give its English translations as being future tense: either:
  1. to be delivered; or
  2. must be delivered
  • cf. the tense and sense given in English versions of Mark 1:14

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This page - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/παραδίδωμι#Ancient_Greek - says

• παράδοσις (parádosis) is a term related to παραδίδωμι; and

• παραδίδω (paradído) is a descendent of παραδίδωμι

[rgprice]

There is something interesting here:

YLT:

23 For I -- I received from the Lord that which also I did deliver to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was delivered up [παρέδωκα], took bread,

From what I can see, not knowing Greek, this appears to have the same root word.

This perhaps dovetails into the question of who Jesus was being sacrificed to: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11623&p=168067#p168067

If Jesus was being "delivered up" to Satan, then perhaps this makes even more sense of John being "delivered up" to Satan as well.

Mark does tell us that Jesus came to, "give His life as a ransom for many." That ransom is being paid, then, to Satan.

So we open with John being "delivered up" to Satan, and close with Jesus being "delivered up" to Satan.

[MrMacSon]

παρέδωκα - paredōka - is a variant-version of Strongs 3860 - παραδίδωμι - paradidómi - https://biblehub.com/greek/3860.htm

[As are παρέδωκεν (paredōken) and παρέδωκαν (paredōkan)]

I presume you have or will see my previous post - above yours - viewtopic.php?p=168684#p168684

[rgprice]

@MrMacSon Yes, I saw your post after I made mine (had been sitting in the browser for a while). Thank you for the clear answer.

I found this interesting as well:
1 Cor 5:

3 For I, though absent in body, am present in spirit, and as if present I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled and my spirit is present with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to hand this man over [παραδοῦναι] to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord

I'd never paid that much attention to this passage before, and had taken it as just some sort of harsh punishment.

But notice that Paul says to hand him over "deliver him up" to Satan, in order to save his spirit.

Handing him over to Satan isn't condemning him. and one can see how the destruction of the flesh of Jesus by Satan, is what releases his spirit. So not only did Origen and other theologians agree that Jesus served as a ransom sacrifice to Satan in order to pay for the souls of mankind or the souls of those who had been "captured" by Satan, but Paul also says that the destruction of the flesh by Satan allows the soul to be saved!

So, this further supports the reading that John was being delivered up to Satan, not that he was "taken to prison".

[MrMacSon]

(This prologue to the main post herein, below the double lines, has been added in light of your most recent post preceding this one)

1Cor 5:5 -

.5 you are to hand this man over [παραδοῦναι] to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved

.. notice that Paul says to hand him over "deliver him up" to Satan, in order to save his spirit.

Ironically, that might well fit with what I have written below in this post
(though I don't think the man in 1Cor 5:5 is actually Jesus: I think it is a "man sleeping with his father’s wife" as per the end of v.1 & in v.3)

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In Mark 1 we are told that after Jesus is baptized the Spirit drives "him" into the wilderness, where he is tempted by Satan, and then John is "delivered up". Most translations say something here like "taken to prison" or something along those lines.

YLT:

12 And immediately doth the Spirit put him forth to the wilderness,
13 and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him.

14 And after the delivering up [παραδοθῆναι] of John, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of the reign of God,
15 and saying -- `Fulfilled hath been the time, and the reign of God hath come nigh, reform ye, and believe in the good news.'

I'm convinced that it was John who was driven into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan here, not Jesus. And that the "delivering up" of John is referring to the "delivering up" of John to Satan.

First of all, the claim that John was being "taken away" comes out of nowhere in the traditional reading of Mark. Jesus was baptized by John, then he's driven into the wilderness, then the next thing we hear, with no explanation is that John was taken away.

1. I'm not sure 'wilderness' was intended here to be a [physical] desert per se (as also with 'beasts' not being actual beasts)
2. I wonder if 'the Adversary' might in fact be one's own mind

I recently looked into wilderness : see viewtopic.php?p=168330#p168330:

In the ancient Hebrew mind the wilderness, in contrast to the cities, is a place of order.

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/definition/word.htm

Like the Hebrew noun דבר (davar, Strong's #1697), translated as "word", midvar (מדבר) is derived from a parent root, דר (DR), which means "order."

eta here:

.מדבר, midvar (Strong's #4057), mean[s] a "wilderness".

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To me, this raises the prospect of the meaning of Jesus (+/- others) in the wilderness:

1. Mark 1:12–13:

12 At once^a the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

1. after rising out of the water at his baptism and "the Spirit descending on him like a dove"; and the voice from heaven declaring him 'my Son'

• though the Greek has erēmon - in Mk 1:12 and ἐρήμῳ - erēmō - (Strongs 2048) in Mk:13
  
  • which are probably more strongly suggestive of "desolate *wilderness*" than the Hebrew davar/daber
    
    eta; though

    
    

    
    Thayer's Greek Lexicon
    
    1. ... (so often by Greek writers of every age, as Aeschylus Ag. 862; Pers. 734; Aristophanes pax 112; ἔρημος τέ καί ὑπό πάντων καταλειφθείς, Herodian, 2, 12, 12 (7 edition, Bekker); of a flock deserted by the shepherd, Homer, Iliad 5, 140): γυνή, a woman neglected by her husband, from whom the husband withholds himself, Galatians 4:27, from Isaiah 54:1; of Jerusalem, bereft of Christ's presence, instruction and aid, Matthew 23:38 (L and WH texts omit); Luke 13:35 Rec.; cf. Bleek, Erklär. d. drei ersten Evv. ii., p. 206 (cf. Baruch 4:19; Additions to (6:13); 2 Macc. 8:35).
    
    https://biblehub.com/greek/2048.htm
    
    

    
    

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I wonder if the narrative in Mk 1:14, "that John was being "taken away"/'delivered up', is

1. unrelated to vv.12-13; or
2. a sidelining of John because Jesus was now considered to be more "ordered" or the author wanted to portray him as such

[dabber]

Morning, I think in Antiquities it was John the Baptist arrested and taken to prison, so it's historical. The writer of Mark may have taken directly from Antiquities. Putting JC in a historical context.

[MrMacSon]

There are arguments that the John the Baptist passage in Antiquities 18 is a Christian interpolation, but that doesn't negate dabber's proposed relationship between the narrative therein - Ant. 18.116-9* - and the narrative in Mark 1

* esp. Ant 18.119:

Accordingly John was sent as a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Machaerus, the castle I already mentioned, and was put to death. Now the Jews thought that the destruction of his army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure with him.
https://www.livius.org/sources/content/ ... e-baptist/

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καὶ ὁ μὲν ὑποψίᾳ τῇ Ἡρώδου δέσμιος εἰς τὸν Μαχαιροῦντα πεμφθεὶς τὸ προειρημένον φρούριον ταύτῃ κτίννυται. τοῖς δὲ Ἰουδαίοις δόξαν ἐπὶ τιμωρίᾳ τῇ ἐκείνου τὸν ὄλεθρον ἐπὶ τῷ στρατεύματι γενέσθαι τοῦ θεοῦ κακῶσαι Ἡρώδην θέλοντος
https://www.biblical.ie/page.php?fl=jos ... /AJGk18#05

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So due to Herod's suspicions he was sent a prisoner to Machaerus, the castle mentioned earlier, and put to death there. The Jews suspected that the loss of Herod's army was sent as a punishment and a mark of God's displeasure with him.

Interestingly, that first [English] reference includes Johns name several times, but the full Greek only has it once, in the beginning:

[116] Τισὶ δὲ τῶν Ἰουδαίων ἐδόκει ὀλωλέναι τὸν Ἡρώδου στρατὸν ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ μάλα δικαίως τινυμένου κατὰ ποινὴν Ἰωάννου τοῦ ἐπικαλουμένου1 βαπτιστοῦ. [117] κτείνει γὰρ δὴ τοῦτον Ἡρώδης ἀγαθὸν ἄνδρα καὶ τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις κελεύοντα ἀρετὴν ἐπασκοῦσιν καὶ τὰ πρὸς ἀλλήλους δικαιοσύνῃ καὶ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν εὐσεβείᾳ χρωμένοις βαπτισμῷ συνιέναι: οὕτω γὰρ δὴ καὶ τὴν βάπτισιν ἀποδεκτὴν αὐτῷ φανεῖσθαι μὴ ἐπί τινων ἁμαρτάδων παραιτήσει χρωμένων, ἀλλ' ἐφ' ἁγνείᾳ τοῦ σώματος, ἅτε δὴ καὶ τῆς ψυχῆς δικαιοσύνῃ προεκκεκαθαρμένης. [118] καὶ τῶν ἄλλων συστρεφομένων, καὶ γὰρ ἥσθησαν ἐπὶ πλεῖστον τῇ ἀκροάσει τῶν λόγων, δείσας Ἡρώδης τὸ ἐπὶ τοσόνδε πιθανὸν αὐτοῦ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις μὴ ἐπὶ ἀποστάσει τινὶ φέροι, πάντα γὰρ ἐῴκεσαν συμβουλῇ τῇ ἐκείνου πράξοντες, πολὺ κρεῖττον ἡγεῖται πρίν τι νεώτερον ἐξ αὐτοῦ γενέσθαι προλαβὼν ἀνελεῖν τοῦ μεταβολῆς γενομένης [μὴ] εἰς πράγματα ἐμπεσὼν μετανοεῖν. [119] καὶ ὁ μὲν ὑποψίᾳ τῇ Ἡρώδου δέσμιος εἰς τὸν Μαχαιροῦντα πεμφθεὶς τὸ προειρημένον φρούριον ταύτῃ κτίννυται. τοῖς δὲ Ἰουδαίοις δόξαν ἐπὶ τιμωρίᾳ τῇ ἐκείνου τὸν ὄλεθρον ἐπὶ τῷ στρατεύματι γενέσθαι τοῦ θεοῦ κακῶσαι Ἡρώδην θέλοντος.

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[116] Some of the Jews thought that that Herod's army was destroyed as a just punishment from God, for what he did to John, who was called the Baptist. [117] For Herod killed this good man who was telling the Jews to practice virtue, and behave righteously towards each other and devoutly towards God and so to come to baptism. This would make the washing acceptable to Him, if it were used not for the putting away of some sins, but for the purification of the body, since the soul was already purified by righteousness. [118] When others crowded round him, for they were greatly moved by hearing his words, Herod feared that his great influence over the people might lead to some revolt, as they seemed ready to do everything he advised, so he thought it better to put him to death before he could start a rebellion than to wait and later have to repent of it after the revolution had begun. [119] So due to Herod's suspicions he was sent a prisoner to Machaerus, the castle mentioned earlier, and put to death there. The Jews suspected that the loss of Herod's army was sent as a punishment and a mark of God's displeasure with him.

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https://www.biblical.ie/page.php?fl=jos ... /AJGk18#05

1 ἐπικαλουμένου2 - epikaloumenou - occurs once in the NT: in Acts 12:12:

Ἰωάννου τοῦ ἐπικαλουμένου Μάρκου οὗ

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John who was called Mark also

2 from ἐπικαλέω - epikaleó - versions of which mostly by far also occur in Acts: see https://biblehub.com/greek/1941.htm

• ( some translated as 'appeal to' or 'appealed to' )