"Q" comes form Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

"Q" comes form Marcion

Post by rgprice »

The discussion in one of SA's threads got me thinking. It seems actually that most of "Q" could be the work of Marcion.

From BeDuhn:
If the Evangelion, rather than Luke, is taken as the point of
comparison with Matthew to establish the text of Q, all of these
problems evaporate at a stroke. Q would open with the Sermon
on the Mount/Plain material. ... The evidence of the
Evangelion, therefore, points to a Q that more consistently takes the
familiar form of a sayings collection than does the text of Q reconstructed
on the basis of Luke.

Correct, and not only is the overlap with *Ev more of a sayings document, but those sayings are highly Marcionite in nature!

https://www.livius.org/sources/content/q-text/

Here is much of the sayings from Q. Yellow = Marcionite in character, Blue = neutral, Red = non-Marcionite.

6.20-23
The Beatitudes
Jesus said: 'Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.'
5.3-12
6.27-36
Love your enemies
Jesus said: 'You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.'
5.43-48
6.37-42
Judging others
Jesus said: 'Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye"; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.'
7.1-5
6.43-45
The tree and its fruits
Jesus said: 'Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.'
7.17-20
6.47-49
The wise and foolish builders
Jesus said: 'Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.'
10.13-15
Woe on unrepentant cities
Jesus said: 'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.'
11.21-23
He who receives you receives me
10.16
'He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives Him who sent me.'
10.40
10.21-22
Hidden things revealed to children
Jesus said: 'I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.'
11.25-27
10.23-24
Then he turned to his disciples and said: 'But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.'
13.16-17
11.2-4
The Lord's prayer
Jesus' disciples asked him how to pray, and he said to them: 'In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
6.9-13a
11.9-13
Ask, seek, knock
Jesus said: 'Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!'
11.39-40
Woe to the Pharisees
Jesus said: 'Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.'
23.25-26
11.43
'You love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, "Rabbi, rabbi".'
23.6-7
11.46
'You bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but you yourselves will not move them with one of their fingers.'
23.4
11.47-48
'Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous...'
23.29
11.49-51
'...God sends you prophets, wise men, and scribes: but some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.'
23.34-36
12.2-9
Warnings and encouragement
Jesus said: 'Do not fear. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.'
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Therefore whoever confesses me before men, him I will also confess before my Father Who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father Who is in heaven.'
10.26-33
Holy Spirit
12.10
'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.'
12.32
Spirit of your Father
12.11-12
'And when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.'
10.19-20
Do not worry
12.22-31
And he said to the disciples: 'Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we drink?" or "What shall we wear?" For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.'
6.25-33
Treasure in heaven
12.33-34
'Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.'
6.19-21
12.39-40,
42-46
The coming of the Son of Man
Jesus said: 'Know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, "My master is delaying his coming," and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
24.43-51
Peace but the sword
12.51-53
'Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth? I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
10.34-36
Signs of the times
12.54-56
They asked him for a sign, and Jesus said: 'When it is evening you say, "It will be fair weather, for the sky is red", and in the morning, "It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening." Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times!'
16.2-3
Agree with adversary
12.57-59
'Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.'
5.25-26
13.20-21
The kingdom of God
Jesus said: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
13.33
Narrow gate
13.24
Jesus said: 'Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.'
7.13-14
Master of the house
13.25
Jesus said: 'When once the master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us," and he will answer and say to you, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you."
25.10b-12
Lawlessness
13.26-27
'Many will say to me in that day, `Lord, lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!'
7.22-23
13.28-29
Jesus said: 'Many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
8.11-12 and 25.30
First last
13.30
Jesus said: 'But many who are first will be last, and the last first.'
19.30 and 20.16
13.34-35
Poor Jerusalem
Jesus said: 'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see me until the time comes when you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"'
23.37-39
14.16-23
Parable of the great banquet
Jesus said: 'The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. Again, he sent out other servants, saying, "Tell those who are invited, '"See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."'
But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, "The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding."
So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.'
22.1-10
14.26-27
Carrying one's cross
Jesus said: 'He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. And he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.'
10.37-38
15.4-7
Parable of the lost sheep
Jesus said: 'What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.'
18.12-14
16.13
Not serving two masters
Jesus said: 'No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.'
6.24
16.16
The law in the kingdom of God
Jesus said: 'And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.'
11.12
16.17
Jesus said: 'I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.'
5.18
16.18
Jesus said: ''I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.'
5.32
17.3a
A brother who sins against you
Jesus said: 'If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.'
18.15
17.3b-4
Then Peter came to him and said, 'Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?'
Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.'
18.21-22
17.5-6
Jesus said to them: 'I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there," and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.'
17.20
17.23-24
The coming of the Son of Man
Jesus said: 'Therefore if they say to you, "Look, the Son of Man is in the desert!" do not go out; or "Look, he is in the inner rooms!" do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.'
24.26-27
17.26-27
'But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.'
24.37-39
17.31
'Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house, and let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.'
24.17-18
Find life
17.33
Jesus said: 'He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.'
10.39
Those who are left
17.35-36
'Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.'
24.40-41
Carcass
17.37
Jesus said: 'For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.'

One possible explanation for this is that Marcion created an expansion of Mark to which he added many sayings and teachings. Then someone else expanded on that to produce proto-Luke. Both Matthew and canonical Luke are derived from proto-Luke, which is derived from Marcion's Gospel, which was derived from "Mark" (or proto-Mark).
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by Secret Alias »

This has been suggested by others. Unfortunately this doesn't get around the problem that Tertullian isn't citing from the Marcionite directly but only repurposing a Greek Adversus Marcionem text in which Irenaeus claims to tackle only the portions of Luke Marcion retained to prove (cough!) that the gospel (i.e. the Luke text shared by Marcion and the Church) really witnessed the Creator. I don't see what relevance any of this has for the study of Q.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8619
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by Peter Kirby »

Aside from the use of the terms "Marcion" and "Q" here, the OP could make good points.
rgprice
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by rgprice »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 2:03 pm This has been suggested by others. Unfortunately this doesn't get around the problem that Tertullian isn't citing from the Marcionite directly but only repurposing a Greek Adversus Marcionem text in which Irenaeus claims to tackle only the portions of Luke Marcion retained to prove (cough!) that the gospel (i.e. the Luke text shared by Marcion and the Church) really witnessed the Creator. I don't see what relevance any of this has for the study of Q.
I find it interesting that the sayings of Q in particular, no matter how one defines it, happen to have a highly disproportionate number of passages that appear to be rather Marcionite in nature.

If one takes the total text of Mark or Matthew or Luke and identifies the passages that appear to be "compatible with Marcionism", I think one will find that there is a much higher proportion of such passages "in Q" than not in Q.

Blessed are the peacemakers, Love your enemies, Judge not, that you be not judged, he who receives me receives Him who sent me, Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him, it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you, etc., etc.

I mean come on...
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1366
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by Ken Olson »

Using traditional source critical categories, Luke contains:

1) Triple tradition material shared with Mark (theoretically also with Matthew, but that's not always observed) commonly called Luke's Markan material
2) Double tradition, shared with Matthew but not Mark, commonly explained by Luke's dependence on Q
3) Lukan Sondergut or Special material, commonly called L

The Evangelion contains all three types of material, though it's missing a big block at the beginning, including the entirety of the Lukan Sondergut from Luke chapters 1 and 2, as well as the Baptism and Genealogy from chapters 3 and the Temptation from Chapter 4.

If we consider just what remains, does the Evangelion contain a higher proportion of Double Tradition/Q material than it does triple Triple Tradition/Markan material and Lukan Sondergut? If it doesn't, what is the significance singling out the Evangelion's relationship to Q?

Best,

Ken

ETA:

TL;DR version: The Evangelion contains Double Tradition material. So what? It also contains Triple Tradition and Special Lukan material.
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1366
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by Ken Olson »

rgprice wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 2:22 pm I find it interesting that the sayings of Q in particular, no matter how one defines it, happen to have a highly disproportionate number of passages that appear to be rather Marcionite in nature.

If one takes the total text of Mark or Matthew or Luke and identifies the passages that appear to be "compatible with Marcionism", I think one will find that there is a much higher proportion of such passages "in Q" than not in Q.

Blessed are the peacemakers, Love your enemies, Judge not, that you be not judged, he who receives me receives Him who sent me, Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him, it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you, etc., etc.

I mean come on...
What criteria did you use to determine if something is compatible with Marcion or not?

You list only three sayings as incompatible with Marcion:
[Luke] 10.13-15
Woe on unrepentant cities
Jesus said: 'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.'
[Matt] 11.21-23
[Matt] 10.26-33
Holy Spirit
[Luke] 12.10
'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.'
[Matt] 24.43-51
Peace but the sword
[Luke] 12.51-53
'Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth? I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
BeDuhn does not include the Woe on Unrepentant Cities from Luke 10.13-15 in his edition of Marcion's Evangelion, but he does include the Holy Spirit bit from Luke 12.10. In the case of Peace but the sword, you quote the Matthean version, but BeDuhn includes the Lukan version from 12.51-53 as part of the Evangelion.

It's hard to tell what you're talking about when you say: 'incompatible with Marcion''.

Best,

Ken
rgprice
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by rgprice »

Part of what BeDuhn says is that *Ev contains passages that are "unMarcionite", so presumably *Ev, at least as BeDuhn has reconstructed it, does include "unMarcionite" passages.

Obviously this wasn't a rigorous examination, and for all I know Marcion could have held views that included some idea of a vengeful Jesus somehow, or the idea of a first appearance of a peaceful Jesus and a second appearance of a militant Jesus or something. Yeah, a theory like this requires more rigor to defend than the 5 minutes I put into it.

But I'm just saying, at first glance there is something here that might make sense.

A lot of the material in Q does have a distinct quality to it that stands out as different from Mark. Especially the big ones like the Sermon on the Plain.

Conceptually, its easy to envision Marcion starting with the Gospel of Mark and adding his Marcionite teachings to it to produce a version of the Gospel that better suits his message. And then someone else taking that Gospel and adding yet more to it to produce proto-Luke. And then someone taking proto-Luke and harmonizing it back to Mark to produce Matthew. And adding the birth narrative and Acts to proto-Luke to produce canonical Luke.

This could also make some sense of the apparent confusion over whether Marcion's Gospel was derived from Mark or Luke. In this scenario, Marcion's Gospel is derived from Mark, but looks more like Luke.
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1366
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by Ken Olson »

rgprice wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:48 am Part of what BeDuhn says is that *Ev contains passages that are "unMarcionite", so presumably *Ev, at least as BeDuhn has reconstructed it, does include "unMarcionite" passages.
Are you quoting 'unMarcionite' from BeDuhn? Where does he say this?
Obviously this wasn't a rigorous examination ... Yeah, a theory like this requires more rigor to defend than the 5 minutes I put into it.
Agreed.
But I'm just saying, at first glance there is something here that might make sense.
I think we would need clear criteria on what makes something positively Marcionite (incompatible with orthodox Christianty as presented by Mark, Matthew, and Luke) or positively not Marcionite (incompatible with Marcion).

Unfortunately, I don't think we have that. Klinghardt, one of the major advocates, if not *the* major advocate of the priority of the Evangelion, argues that it was a theologically neutral document that predated Marcion, which was why the other synoptics used it as a source. It was only later when the work was adopted by Marcion that the Evangelion fell into disfavor with the orthodox church (i.e., the church that adopted Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John as normative).

If he's correct, then we're not going to be able to identify specifically Marcionite ideas in the Evangelion. In another thread I asked if we could find any passages in the Evangelion that clearly distinguished between the Creator God who gave the law to Israel and the Good God who was Jesus father, which would be a specifically Marcionite idea inasmuch as we can derive what Marcion believed at second hand from the patristic witnesses.

I do not think there were any such passages (though I am admittedly trying to summarize an entire thread here):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10815&hilit=marcion+god+israel
This could also make some sense of the apparent confusion over whether Marcion's Gospel was derived from Mark or Luke. In this scenario, Marcion's Gospel is derived from Mark, but looks more like Luke.
Yes, if we could identify specifically Marcionite ideas in the Evangelion, I think that might help greatly with determining the direction of dependence between the Evangelion and the various synoptic gospels. But at present, I don't think we can.

Best,

Ken
rgprice
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by rgprice »

Obviously ideas in the canonical Gospels have all been accepted and justified as "orthodox". So we can't really identify anything in any canonical Gospel as "uniquely Marcionite" or "uniquely Gnostic", etc.

Yet, there are plenty of passages in the canonical Gospels that clearly are more aligned with the ideas the church fathers attributed to various heretics than to the ways that they defined their own faith. The Gospel of John abounds with obvious examples.

"And the Word became flesh and lived among us": We can see that this statement is not inherently orthodox. It does not indicate that Jesus was "born from Mary". This statement can be compatible with the idea that Jesus descended from heaven and took on human form.

Close on their heels follows Apelles, a disciple of Marcion, ... The Law and the prophets he repudiates. Christ he neither, like Marcion, affirms to have been in a phantasmal shape, nor yet in substance of a true body, as the Gospel teaches; but says, because He descended from the upper regions, that in the course of His descent He wove together for Himself a starry and airy flesh; and, in His resurrection, restored, in the course of His ascent, to the several individual elements whatever had been borrowed in His descent: and thus-the several parts of His body dispersed-He reinstated in heaven His spirit only. This man denies the resurrection of the flesh.
- Against All Heresies; Tertullian, 3rd century

So we can see that John 1:14 is compatible with the teachings of Apelles. Furthermore, that John 1:14 distinctly advances a concept taught by Apelles that was not advocated by orthodox Christians.

Again:
John 3:31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, yet no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted his testimony has certified this, that God is true.

Again, obviously orthodox Christians have presented interpretations of such passages that align with their theology, but clearly one can see that such statements would also be highly compatible with the theology of Apelles, for example, and that in fact the more intuitive reading of such statements better aligns with non-orthodox theologies.

The same goes for many of the sayings in Q.

What can we say about this:
'You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.'

First I'll address the part in bold. This does sound "unMarcionite" because it is talking about an act that would presumably be attributed to the Creator. So one can count this as a mark against Marcionite authorship.

However, the bold part isn't present in Luke:
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive payment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 Instead, love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

We are told that Marcion referred to his Good God as "Father" and the "Highest" God. We are told that Marcion said Jesus was sent to deliver the message of the Good God, who was called loving and merciful and that we should love all.

From Tertullian:
Again, he [Marcion's God] plainly judges evil by not willing it, and condemns it by prohibiting it; while, on the other hand, he acquits it by not avenging it, and lets it go free by not punishing it. What a prevaricator of truth is such a god! What a dissembler with his own decision! Afraid to condemn what he really condemns, afraid to hate what he does not love, permitting that to be done which he does not allow, choosing to indicate what he dislikes rather than deeply examine it! This will turn out an imaginary goodness, a phantom of discipline, perfunctory in duty, careless in sin. Listen, you sinners; and you who have not yet come to this, hear, that you may attain to such a pass! A better god has been discovered, who never takes offense, is never angry, never inflicts punishment, who has prepared no fire in hell, no gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness! He is purely and simply good. He indeed forbids all delinquency, but only in word. He is in you, if you are willing to pay him homage, for the sake of appearances, that you may seem to honour God; for your fear he does not want. And so satisfied are the Marcionites with such pretences, that they have no fear of their god at all. They say it is only a bad man who will be feared, a good man will be loved. Foolish man, do you say that he whom you call Lord ought not to be feared, while the very title you give him indicates a power which must itself be feared? But how are you going to love, without some fear that you do not love? Surely (such a god) is neither your Father, towards whom your love for duty's sake should be consistent with fear because of His power; nor your proper Lord, whom you should love for His humanity and fear as your teacher. Kidnappers indeed are loved after this fashion, but they are not feared. For power will not be feared, except it be just and regular, although it may possibly be loved even when corrupt: for it is by allurement that it stands, not by authority; by flattery, not by proper influence. And what can be more direct flattery than not to punish sins? Come, then, if you do not fear God as being good, why do you not boil over into every kind of lust, and so realize that which is, I believe, the main enjoyment of life to all who fear not God? Why do you not frequent the customary pleasures of the maddening circus, the bloodthirsty arena, and the lascivious theatre? Why in persecutions also do you not, when the censer is presented, at once redeem your life by the denial of your faith? God forbid, you say with redoubled emphasis. So you do fear sin, and by your fear prove that He is an object of fear Who forbids the sin. This is quite a different matter from that obsequious homage you pay to the god whom you do not fear, which is identical in perversity indeed to is own conduct, in prohibiting a thing without annexing the sanction of punishment. Still more vainly do they act, who when asked, What is to become of every sinner in that great day?

Etc. The point is that when you look at Q, in particular the 'Q" passages as they exist in Luke, it is remarkable how compatible they are with Marcionism. So I say that Q sayings are far more compatible with Marcionism than non-Q material. This in and of itself is a very interesting circumstance.
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1366
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: "Q" comes form Marcion

Post by Ken Olson »

rgprice wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:20 am We are told that Marcion referred to his Good God as "Father" and the "Highest" God. We are told that Marcion said Jesus was sent to deliver the message of the Good God, who was called loving and merciful and that we should love all.

From Tertullian:
Again, he [Marcion's God] plainly judges evil by not willing it, and condemns it by prohibiting it; while, on the other hand, he acquits it by not avenging it, and lets it go free by not punishing it. What a prevaricator of truth is such a god! What a dissembler with his own decision! Afraid to condemn what he really condemns, afraid to hate what he does not love, permitting that to be done which he does not allow, choosing to indicate what he dislikes rather than deeply examine it! This will turn out an imaginary goodness, a phantom of discipline, perfunctory in duty, careless in sin. Listen, you sinners; and you who have not yet come to this, hear, that you may attain to such a pass! A better god has been discovered, who never takes offense, is never angry, never inflicts punishment, who has prepared no fire in hell, no gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness! He is purely and simply good. He indeed forbids all delinquency, but only in word. He is in you, if you are willing to pay him homage, for the sake of appearances, that you may seem to honour God; for your fear he does not want. And so satisfied are the Marcionites with such pretences, that they have no fear of their god at all. They say it is only a bad man who will be feared, a good man will be loved. Foolish man, do you say that he whom you call Lord ought not to be feared, while the very title you give him indicates a power which must itself be feared? But how are you going to love, without some fear that you do not love? Surely (such a god) is neither your Father, towards whom your love for duty's sake should be consistent with fear because of His power; nor your proper Lord, whom you should love for His humanity and fear as your teacher. Kidnappers indeed are loved after this fashion, but they are not feared. For power will not be feared, except it be just and regular, although it may possibly be loved even when corrupt: for it is by allurement that it stands, not by authority; by flattery, not by proper influence. And what can be more direct flattery than not to punish sins? Come, then, if you do not fear God as being good, why do you not boil over into every kind of lust, and so realize that which is, I believe, the main enjoyment of life to all who fear not God? Why do you not frequent the customary pleasures of the maddening circus, the bloodthirsty arena, and the lascivious theatre? Why in persecutions also do you not, when the censer is presented, at once redeem your life by the denial of your faith? God forbid, you say with redoubled emphasis. So you do fear sin, and by your fear prove that He is an object of fear Who forbids the sin. This is quite a different matter from that obsequious homage you pay to the god whom you do not fear, which is identical in perversity indeed to is own conduct, in prohibiting a thing without annexing the sanction of punishment. Still more vainly do they act, who when asked, What is to become of every sinner in that great day?

Etc. The point is that when you look at Q, in particular the 'Q" passages as they exist in Luke, it is remarkable how compatible they are with Marcionism. So I say that Q sayings are far more compatible with Marcionism than non-Q material. This in and of itself is a very interesting circumstance.
Here is a sample of Q texts that seem to presuppose a future eschatological judgment from the International Q Project's English translation (which used to be on John Kloppenborg's web site):

Q 3:7-9 John's Announcement of Judgment
7 He said to the ·crowds coming to be‚ bapti·zed‚: Snakes’ litter! Who warned you to run from the impending rage? 8 So bear fruit worthy of repentance, and do not presume to tell yourselves: We have as «fore»father Abraham! For I tell you: God can produce children for Abraham right out of these rocks! 9 And the ax already lies at the root of the trees. So every tree not bearing healthy fruit is to be chopped down and thrown on the fire.

Q 3:16b-17 John and the One to Come
16b I baptize you ·in‚ water, but the one to come after me is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to ·take off‚. He will baptize you in ·holy‚ Spirit and fire. 17 His pitchfork «is» in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn on a fire that can never be put out.

Q 6:37-38 Not Judging
37 .. Do not pass judgment, «so» you are not judged. ·For with what judgment you pass judgment, you will be judged.‚ 38 ·And‚ with the measurement you use to measure out, it will be measured out to you.

Q 10:10-12 Response to a Town's Rejection
10 But into whatever town you enter and they do not take you in, on going out ·from that town‚, 11 shake off the dust from your feet. 12 I tell you: For Sodom it shall be more bearable on that day than for that town.

Q 10:13-15 Woes against Galilean Towns
13 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the wonders performed in you had taken place in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, in sackcloth and ashes. 14 Yet for Tyre and Sidon it shall be more bearable at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, up to heaven will you be exalted? Into Hades shall you come down!

Q 11:31-32 Something More than Solomon and Jonah
31 The queen of the South will be raised at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to the wisdom of Solomon, and look, something more than Solomon is here! 32 Ninevite men will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it. For they repented at the announcement of Jonah, and look, something more than Jonah is here!

Q 11:?39a?, 42, 39b, 41, 43-44 Woes against the Pharisees
?39a? .. 42 Woe for you, Pharisees, for you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and ·give up‚ justice and mercy and faithfulness. But these one had to do, without giving up those. 39b Woe to you, Pharisees, for you purify the outside of the cup and dish, but inside ·they are‚ full of plunder and dissipation. 41 ·Purify‚ .. the inside of the cup, … its outside … pure. 43 Woe to you, Pharisees, for <you> love ·the place of honor at banquets and‚ the front seat in the synagogues and accolades in the markets. 44 Woe to you, ·Pharisees,‚ for you are like indistinct tombs, and people walking on top are unaware.

Q 11:46b, 52, 47-48 Woes against the Exegetes of the Law
46b ·And‚ woe to you, ·exegetes of the Law,‚ for <you> ·bind‚ ... burdens, ·and load on the backs of people, but‚ <you your>selves do not ·want «to lift»‚ your finger ·to move‚ them. 52 Woe to you, ·exegetes of the Law,‚ for you shut the ·kingdom of <God> from people‚; you did not go in, ·nor‚ let in those «trying to» get in. 47 Woe to you, for you built the tombs of the prophets, but your «fore»fathers killed them. 48 «Thus» ·you‚ witness ·against yourselves that‚ you are ·sons‚ of your «fore»fathers. ..

Q 11:49-51 Wisdom’s Judgment on This Generation
49 Therefore also .. Wisdom said: I will send them prophets and sages, and «some» of them they will kill and persecute, 50 so that «a settling of accounts for» the blood of all the prophets poured out from the founding of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from «the» blood of Abel to «the» blood of Zechariah, murdered between the sacrificial altar and the House. Yes, I tell you, «an accounting» will be required of this generation!

Q 12:4-5 Not Fearing the Body’s Death
4 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. 5 But fear .. the one who is able to destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna.
.

Q 12:8-9 Confessing or Denying
8 Anyone who ·may‚ speak out for me in public, ·the son of humanity‚ will also speak out for him before the angels .. . 9 But whoever may deny me in public ·will be‚ den·ied‚ before the angels .. .

Q 12:10 Speaking against the Holy Spirit
10 And whoever says a word against the son of humanity, it will be forgiven him; but whoever ·speaks‚ against the holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

Q 12:42-46 The Faithful or Unfaithful Slave
42 Who then is the faithful ·and‚ wise slave whom the master put over his household to give ·them‚ food on time? 43 Blessed is that slave whose master, on coming, will find so doing. 44 ·Amen‚, I tell you, he will appoint him over all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart: My master is delayed, and begins to beat ·his fellow slaves‚, and eats and drinks ·with the‚ drunk·ards‚, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him to pieces and give him an inheritance with the faithless.

Q 12:58-59 Settling out of Court
58 ·While‚ you «go along» with your opponent on the way, make an effort to get loose from him, lest ·the opponent‚ hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the assistant, and ·the <assistant>‚ throw ·you‚ into prison. 59 I say to you: You will not get out of there until you pay the last ·penny‚.

Q 13:24-27 I Do Not Know You
24 Enter through the narrow door, for many will seek to enter and few ·are those who <enter through> it‚. 25 When the ·householder has arisen‚ and locked the door, ·and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door,‚ saying: Master, open for us, and he will answer you: I do not know you. 26 Then you will begin saying: We ate in your presence and drank, and «it was» in our streets you taught. 27 And he will say to you: I do not know you! Get away from me, ·you who‚ do lawlessness!

Q 13:29, 28 Replaced by People from East and West
29 ·And many‚ shall come from Sunrise and Sunset and recline 28 with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God, but ·you will be‚ thrown out ·into the‚ outer darkness‚, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.

Q 17:1-2 Against Enticing Little Ones
1 It is necessary for enticements to come, but woe «to the one» through whom they come! 2 It is better for him ·if‚ a millstone is put around his neck and he is thrown into the sea, than that he should entice one of these little ones.

Q 19:12-13, 15-24, 26 The Parable of the Entrusted Money
12 .. A certain person, on taking a trip, 13 called ten of his slaves and gave them ten minas and said to them: Do business until I come. 15 .. ·After a long time‚ the master of those slaves comes and settles accounts with them. 16 And the first ·came‚ saying: Master, your mina has produced ten more minas. 17 And he said to him: Well done, good slave, you have been faithful over a pittance, I will set you over much. 18 And the ·second‚ came saying: Master, your mina has earned five minas. 19 He said ·to him: Well done, good slave, you have been faithful over a pittance,‚ I will set you over much. 20 And the other came saying: Master, 21 ·I knew‚ you, that you are a hard person, reaping where you did not sow and gathering from where you did not winnow; and, scared, I ·went and‚ hid ·your mina‚ in ·the ground‚. Here, you have what belongs to you. 22 He said to him: Wicked slave! You knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather from where I have not winnowed? 23 ·Then you had to invest‚ my money ·with the‚ money·-changers‚! And at my coming I would have received what belongs to me plus interest. 24 So take from him the mina and give «to» the one who has the ten minas. 26 ·For‚ to everyone who has will be given; but from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

Q 22:28, 30 You Will Judge the Twelve Tribes of Israel
28 .. You who have followed me 30 will sit .. on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is the text of the IQP's reconstructed Q version given in the Lukan order, though not always in the Lukan wording. It is imaginable that a few of these sayings, such as the Woes, do not refer to a future eschatological judgment. It is, nevertheless, very difficult to see how the Jesus and God depicted in Q can be squared with what Tertullian says of Marcion's Good God:
'A better god has been discovered, who never takes offense, is never angry, never inflicts punishment, who has prepared no fire in hell, no gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness! He is purely and simply good.

(Yes, the wailing and gnashing of teeth is found in Luke 13.28),

Best,

Ken
Post Reply