Socrates never existed: analogies with Jesus

[Giuseppe]

https://tonilokadi.com/socrate-na-jamais-existe/

Socrates appears too much perfect to be real.

[andrewcriddle]

One may have to distinguish between a minimal historical Socrates who almost certainly existed, and the Socrates important in the history of Philosophy, the figure behind the writings of Plato and Xenophon. This Socrates, Socrates the philosopher, is quite possibly largely fictitious.

Andrew Criddle

[Ken Olson]

One may have to distinguish between a minimal historical Socrates who almost certainly existed, and the Socrates important in the history of Philosophy, the figure behind the writings of Plato and Xenophon. This Socrates, Socrates the philosopher, is quite possibly largely fictitious.

Andrew Criddle

I would nuance this a bit. We have three very good witnesses to the fact that Socrates existed and that he was a philosopher. They disagree about exactly what he taught. Two of the witnesses, Plato and Xenophon, were Socrates' students, though Plato does not present himself as a witness to the dialogues. Xenophon claims to have gotten gotten the substance of his Apology for Socrates from an intimate acquaintance named Hermogenes who personally witnessed it and to have at least known Socrates himself. Aristophanes satirized Socrates' philosophy in his play The Clouds, which was performed during Socrates lifetime (or 'supposed lifetime'' if one insists).

Best,

Ken

[Giuseppe]

We have three very good witnesses to the fact that Socrates existed

that is captured by what the linked text says:

Le troisième argument est que Socrate correspond à un archétype littéraire courant dans l’Antiquité. Il n’est pas rare de trouver dans la littérature ancienne des personnages qui incarnent la sagesse, la vertu ou la piété, et qui sont persécutés ou mis à mort pour leurs idées. On peut citer par exemple Diogène le cynique, qui vivait dans un tonneau et défiait les conventions sociales ; Pythagore, qui aurait fondé une secte mystérieuse et aurait été assassiné par ses ennemis ; ou encore Jésus-Christ, qui aurait prêché l’amour universel et aurait été crucifié par les Romains. Ces personnages ont en commun d’être des modèles moraux ou spirituels pour leurs adeptes, mais aussi des figures contestataires ou subversives pour leurs adversaires.

[andrewcriddle]

One may have to distinguish between a minimal historical Socrates who almost certainly existed, and the Socrates important in the history of Philosophy, the figure behind the writings of Plato and Xenophon. This Socrates, Socrates the philosopher, is quite possibly largely fictitious.

Andrew Criddle

I would nuance this a bit. We have three very good witnesses to the fact that Socrates existed and that he was a philosopher. They disagree about exactly what he taught. Two of the witnesses, Plato and Xenophon, were Socrates' students, though Plato does not present himself as a witness to the dialogues. Xenophon claims to have gotten gotten the substance of his Apology for Socrates from an intimate acquaintance named Hermogenes who personally witnessed it and to have at least known Socrates himself. Aristophanes satirized Socrates' philosophy in his play The Clouds, which was performed during Socrates lifetime (or 'supposed lifetime'' if one insists).

Best,

Ken

Hi Ken

I think you are probably right but I am less certain than you are. Have you read Montuori's Socrates Physiology of a Myth ? This argues that Plato and Xenophon are rewriting the historical Socrates, the campaigner against democracy suspected of Spartan sympathies, into a philosopher in our sense of the word.

Andrew Criddle

[Ken Olson]

One may have to distinguish between a minimal historical Socrates who almost certainly existed, and the Socrates important in the history of Philosophy, the figure behind the writings of Plato and Xenophon. This Socrates, Socrates the philosopher, is quite possibly largely fictitious.

Andrew Criddle

I would nuance this a bit. We have three very good witnesses to the fact that Socrates existed and that he was a philosopher. They disagree about exactly what he taught. Two of the witnesses, Plato and Xenophon, were Socrates' students, though Plato does not present himself as a witness to the dialogues. Xenophon claims to have gotten gotten the substance of his Apology for Socrates from an intimate acquaintance named Hermogenes who personally witnessed it and to have at least known Socrates himself. Aristophanes satirized Socrates' philosophy in his play The Clouds, which was performed during Socrates lifetime (or 'supposed lifetime'' if one insists).

Best,

Ken

Hi Ken

I think you are probably right but I am less certain than you are. Have you read Montuori's Socrates Physiology of a Myth ? This argues that Plato and Xenophon are rewriting the historical Socrates, the campaigner against democracy suspected of Spartan sympathies, into a philosopher in our sense of the word.

Andrew Criddle

I have not. What does he say about Aristophanes? I know that the common opinion is that the text of the Clouds that has come down to us is not exactly the same text that was performed in 423 BCE but was revised after the production. Does Montuori (or anyone esle) argue that it was revised to satirize the conception of Socrates as a philosopher that had grown up after his death?

Best,

Ken

[andrewcriddle]

One may have to distinguish between a minimal historical Socrates who almost certainly existed, and the Socrates important in the history of Philosophy, the figure behind the writings of Plato and Xenophon. This Socrates, Socrates the philosopher, is quite possibly largely fictitious.

Andrew Criddle

I would nuance this a bit. We have three very good witnesses to the fact that Socrates existed and that he was a philosopher. They disagree about exactly what he taught. Two of the witnesses, Plato and Xenophon, were Socrates' students, though Plato does not present himself as a witness to the dialogues. Xenophon claims to have gotten gotten the substance of his Apology for Socrates from an intimate acquaintance named Hermogenes who personally witnessed it and to have at least known Socrates himself. Aristophanes satirized Socrates' philosophy in his play The Clouds, which was performed during Socrates lifetime (or 'supposed lifetime'' if one insists).

Best,

Ken

Hi Ken

I think you are probably right but I am less certain than you are. Have you read Montuori's Socrates Physiology of a Myth ? This argues that Plato and Xenophon are rewriting the historical Socrates, the campaigner against democracy suspected of Spartan sympathies, into a philosopher in our sense of the word.

Andrew Criddle

I have not. What does he say about Aristophanes? I know that the common opinion is that the text of the Clouds that has come down to us is not exactly the same text that was performed in 423 BCE but was revised after the production. Does Montuori (or anyone esle) argue that it was revised to satirize the conception of Socrates as a philosopher that had grown up after his death?

Best,

Ken

Montuori (in Socrates an approach) cites Chiappelli (whom I have not read) for the position that the revised version of Clouds is attacking Socrates as a philosopher whereas the original version satirized him as a sort of pseudo-Scientist. Montuori himself rejects this position and holds that the revision did not change the attitude to Socrates. According to Montuori Aristophanes caricatures Socrates but presents him as a threat to traditional values in a way that was widely shared (and plausible) and which would result in his death.

Andrew Criddle

[Ken Olson]

We have three very good witnesses to the fact that Socrates existed

that is captured by what the linked text says:

Le troisième argument est que Socrate correspond à un archétype littéraire courant dans l’Antiquité. Il n’est pas rare de trouver dans la littérature ancienne des personnages qui incarnent la sagesse, la vertu ou la piété, et qui sont persécutés ou mis à mort pour leurs idées. On peut citer par exemple Diogène le cynique, qui vivait dans un tonneau et défiait les conventions sociales ; Pythagore, qui aurait fondé une secte mystérieuse et aurait été assassiné par ses ennemis ; ou encore Jésus-Christ, qui aurait prêché l’amour universel et aurait été crucifié par les Romains. Ces personnages ont en commun d’être des modèles moraux ou spirituels pour leurs adeptes, mais aussi des figures contestataires ou subversives pour leurs adversaires.

The third argument is that Socrates corresponds to a literary archetype common in Antiquity. It is not uncommon to find in ancient literature characters who embody wisdom, virtue or piety, and who are persecuted or put to death for their ideas. For example, we can cite Diogenes the Cynic, who lived in a barrel and defied social conventions; Pythagoras, who founded a mysterious sect and was murdered by his enemies; or even Jesus Christ, who preached universal love and was crucified by the Romans. These characters have in common that they are moral or spiritual models for their followers, but also protesting or subversive figures for their adversaries.

So you're just going to ignore the evidence I gave in support of my claim that we have three very good witnesses who were contemporaries of Socrates, one of whom wrote well before he was put to death and doesn't portray him as wise virtuous or pious at all and doesn't figure in to the literary archetype.

Instead you appeal to the authority of a webiste that claims it is possible that Socrates was only a fictional character created by Plato to give more credibility to his philosophy without dealing with the fact that Aristophanes satirized Socrates in the Clouds twenty plus years before Plato published his dialogues about Socrates.

You really are inattentive to the substance of arguments sometimes Giuseppe. That Plato made Socrates the mouthpiece for his own philosophy is credible. In fact, i think it's true. I think what we have in the dialogues are Plato's thoughts and I could not disentangle the thoughts of the historical Socrates from them. But that Socrates existed and was a philosopher rests on a much firmer foundation.

Best,

Ken

[Giuseppe]

three very good witnesses who were contemporaries

what if I could find a valid counter-example of a mere literary archetype that is recognized as such even if "witnessed" by contemporaries?

ADDENDA: the point is that Plato, Alcibiades, Xenophon, Aristophanes were all from the same circle, even if with different political views.

[Ken Olson]

three very good witnesses who were contemporaries

what if I could find a valid counter-example of a mere literary archetype that is recognized as such even if "witnessed" by contemporaries?

If you could find an example of a fictional person whom three people claim to have met (and I'm sure you could) it would be inconclusive. I could probably find many, many more real people who at least three contemporaries claim to have met.

I suspect it is not uncommon in activities where deception is involved, such as crime or espionage, for the people doing the deceiving to invent fictional persons in order to deceive the target of the deception.

Best,

Ken