Unrecognized Transmigration Concepts in Origen

[Secret Alias]

Contra Celsus 1.46 "And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove." Clearly Christ is being passed on to new generations of Christians (= third century) in Origen.

[MrMacSon]

Most of Origen's Contra Celsus 1.46:

For the law and the prophets are full of marvels similar to those recorded of Jesus at His baptism, viz., regarding the dove and the voice from heaven. And I think the wonders wrought by Jesus are a proof of the Holy Spirit's having then appeared in the form of a dove, although Celsus, from a desire to cast discredit upon them, alleges that He performed only what He had learned among the Egyptians. And I shall refer not only to His miracles, but, as is proper, to those also of the apostles of Jesus. For they could not, without the help of miracles and wonders, have prevailed on those who heard their new doctrines and new teachings abandon their national usages and accept their instructions at the danger to themselves even of death. And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. They expel evil spirits, and perform many cures, and foresee certain events, according to the will of the Logos. And, although Celsus, or the Jew whom he has introduced, may treat with mockery what I am going to say, I shall say it nevertheless — that many have been converted to Christianity as if against their will; some sort of spirit having suddenly transformed their minds from a hatred of the doctrine to a readiness to die in its defense, and having appeared to them either in a waking vision or a dream of the night ...And as it is a Jew who is perplexed about the account of the Holy Spirit having descended upon Iesous in the form of a dove, we would say to him, "Sir, who is it that says in Isaiah,* 'And now the Lord has sent me and His Spirit'."' In which sentence, as the meaning is doubtful — viz., whether the Father and the Holy Spirit sent Jesus, or the Father sent both Christ and the Holy Spirit— the latter is correct. For, because the Saviour was sent, afterwards the Holy Spirit was sent also, that the prediction of the prophet might be fulfilled; and as it was necessary that the fulfilment of the prophecy should be known to posterity, the disciples of Jesus for that reason committed the result to writing.

* Isaiah 48.16b:

RSV
Draw near to me, hear this: 'from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there. And now the Lord God has sent me and his Spirit.

TLV
Draw near to Me, hear this: Since the beginning, I have not spoken in secret. From the time it existed, I was there. So now Adonai Elohim has sent Me and His Ruach.”

YLT
Come near unto me, hear this, Not from the beginning in secret spoke I, From the time of its being, there [was] I, And now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me and His Spirit.

[MrMacSon]

The end of Origen's Contra Celsus 1.46:

For, because the Saviour was sent, afterwards the Holy Spirit was sent also, that the prediction of the prophet might be fulfilled; and as it was necessary that the fulfilment of the prophecy should be known to posterity, the disciples of Jesus for that reason committed the result to writing.

nb., the start:

For the law and the prophets are full of marvels similar to those recorded of Jesus at His baptism, viz., regarding the dove and the voice from heaven. And I think the wonders wrought by Jesus are a proof of the Holy Spirit's having then appeared in the form of a dove ... And I shall refer not only to His miracles, but, as is proper, to those also of the apostles of Jesus.

Later:

And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove.

And:

...And, as it is a Jew who is perplexed about the account of the Holy Spirit having descended upon Iesous in the form of a dove, we would say to him, "Sir, who is it that says in Isaiah,* 'And now the Lord has sent me and His Spirit'."' In which sentence, as the meaning is doubtful — viz., whether the Father and the Holy Spirit sent Jesus, or the Father sent both Christ and the Holy Spirit— the latter is correct.

[Peter Kirby]

I don't understand the use of the word transmigration in the thread's title.

[DCHindley]

Contra Celsus 1.46 "And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove." Clearly Christ is being passed on to new generations of Christians (= third century) in Origen.

I agree with Peter.

The title would suggest something about Origen's POV on the transmigration of souls. From what I've heard alleged, Origen thought that unsaved souls die and are reborn countless times, each cycle refining the soul, until all souls, including the devil's own, eventually will be purified and thus saved.

Try as one might, one finds that Origen does not use terminology for this in a way that resembles the way moderns had pegged Hindus or Buddhists as using. It sounds a bit too much like the Hindu concepts of reincarnation and karma as transmitted by 19th century British gentlemen soldier overlords, to be accurate descriptions of what Origen actually believed. In the 1990s there was a lot of academic talk about how Buddhist traders were believed to have established representatives in Alexandria in 1C CE, so maybe I was remembering hype.

Unfortunately, this reincarnation cycle belief was the very concept that got his Greek work redacted or translated (with changes to enhance orthodoxy) by Eusebius, Jerome, et al., so there really isn't much trace of it in the texts that have survived, or the Latin translations. So, I guess texts can be cleaned up if the author deviates too far from orthodoxy by later generations.

I could be see the idea of recycling/refining of souls behind a claim that some folks believed they had encountered folks from earlier ages, as if the biblical persons had reappeared in a new body. Think of the disciples who thought that a random man they talked with as they walked together on a road, was actually Jesus himself. These were probably, IMHO, just spooky coincidences, but even today we hear about 6 y/o children who are supposed to have spooky accurate knowledge of things past or future.

What that may have to do with the dove alighting on Jesus' head at his own baptism, though, I don't know.

Are you suggesting a new interpretation of the dove symbolism? <think fast SA!>

DCH

[Secret Alias]

I just think Paul, Marcion, Montanus, Mani and hundreds of others thought they were "Christ."