My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

Post by rgprice »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:52 pm This is probably how Marcion went about things.
I don't disagree. I think there were earlier versions of the narrative that were more open to "Gnostic" interpretation, or led to "Gnostic" interpretation. The idea that someone would start out with a Gospel like Matthew or canonical Luke and then modify or change it in order to arrive at the belief that Jesus was a pure spirit from heaven doesn't make sense. It must be that the belief that Jesus was a spirit from heaven originated from stories that more clearly said he was a spirit from heaven. I don't even think that reconstructed versions of *Ev would really lead to the types of ideas that were claimed to have existed among multiple Christians, of Jesus descending from heaven. "He came down to Capernaum" doesn't do it.

And the transformation of stories that began with Jesus being a spirit from heaven into a person born on earth makes far more sense than the other way around.

We know there is significant testimony from the church fathers indicating that several Christian groups believed that Jesus was a spirit who had descended to earth directly from heaven. We know that Ascension of Isaiah describes very directly how "the Beloved" descends from the highest heaven down through the levels of heaven, being transfigured to take on the appearance of the beings from each level as a disguise. We also know there is nothing like this "transfiguration" described in the traditional Jewish scriptures. And that transfiguration in Ascension of Isaiah serves a purpose, which is hiding the identity of "the Beloved".

Given that, what I've shown in the OP is that such an opening can be achieved by more closely aligning the opening with the Kings narrative and with the openings of Luke and John.

There is also clearly a link between the Transfiguration scene and the opening. In Ascension of Isaiah the Beloved is presumably transfigured as he enters the earthly realm. He was transfigured from the form of the "angels of the air" into one "like a son of man".

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... nsion.html

9. And that thou mayest see the Lord of all those heavens and these thrones.

10. Undergoing (successive) transformation until He resembles your form and likeness.

...

18. And the angel who conducted me [from this world was with me and] said unto me: "Understand, Isaiah, and see the transformation and descent of the Lord will appear."

...

25. And again I saw when He descended into the second heaven, and again He gave the password there; those who kept the gate proceeded to demand and the Lord to give.

26. And I saw when He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the second heaven, and they saw Him and they did not praise Him; for His form was like unto their form.

27. And again I saw when He descended into the first heaven, and there also He gave the password to those who kept the gate, and He made Himself like unto the form of the angels who were on the left of that throne, and they neither praised nor lauded Him; for His form was like unto their form.

28. But as for me no one asked me on account of the angel who conducted me.

29. And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles.

30. And I saw when He descended and made Himself like unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them.

31. And He gave no password; for one was plundering and doing violence to another.

In Mark 9 we are told: "He was transfigured before them; 3 and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them."

But this "transfiguration" is superfluous. So Jesus presumably floats up into the air and becomes bright and shiny. Okay. This is a lot of hoopla for not much. The whole scene is strained. It makes more sense that instead there was a witnessing of the Spirit descending as a dove (an angel of the air) and then upon his further descent he was "transfigured" into "one like a son of man".

Such a narrative is more in line with Ascension of Isaiah, more in line with the Elijah/Elisha narrative, and more in line with the openings of John and Luke 3. Is that coincidence?

Again, the opening of John:

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This opening is quite a bit different from the canonical Synoptic openings of the ministry of Jesus (Mark 1, Mathew 3, Luke 3), yet we can see how this opening could easily have been derived from something like:

And the word of God came to John in the wilderness. 10 Immediately he saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit as a dove coming down upon him; He was transfigured into one like a son of man; 3 and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them 11 and a voice came out of the heavens: “This is My beloved Son, in Him I am well-pleased.”

Now we have something that: #1 is actually more aligned with the Kings narrative, #2 could reasonable cause people to say that Jesus was a spirit who had come from heaven, #3 is more aligned with Luke 3, and can be the inspiration of the opening of John. #4 This gives us a better explanation for the term "son of man". #5 It also provides a better explanation of why Jesus is hiding his identity.
rgprice
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

Post by rgprice »

I will say, though, that now I'm starting to second-think the announcement:

And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

There are two problems with the opening of Mark, firstly the title: "The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah/Jesus Christ" and the announcement of who he is: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Because throughout the rest of the narrative the identity of Jesus is supposed to be a mystery. Does the writer really ruin the mystery right up front? It seems to me that the writer isn't going to tell the reader that Jesus is "the Christ" in the very first line/title, and then play games with his identity for the next 15 chapters. Likewise, doesn't announcing that Jesus is the son of God with a booming voice to John and his onlookers blow his cover immediately?

So maybe in the original story this announcement was not made.
Last edited by rgprice on Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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maryhelena
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

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GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 2:52 am I wasn't trying to promote any particular theory, but imagine a GakuseiDon, or a Giuseppe, or a maryhelena, becoming convinced that their views of the early texts was theologically true, and started a schism based on that. That's a model of what's happening in the OP, and I believe that's what we see in Marcion's development of his beliefs. We are developing theories based on data that is marginal. Because there is so much low-quality data available, we can pick and choose from it to build anything we want. That must have been the case in Marcion's time as well, though he appears to have been building off already established ideas by earlier Christians like Cerdo and Valentnius. By Marcion's time, any firm data about Christianity's origin had probably been lost.
Theologically true.... Not from me :shock
Interpretation is always provisional...ideas have no inherent right to immortality. They might have their glory days but fall from their pedestal sooner or later.

Truth? I've always found this quote interesting:

Perhaps the mission of those who love mankind is to make people laugh at the truth, to make truth laugh, because the only truth lies in learning to free ourselves from insane passion for the truth.

Umberto Eco

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maryhelena
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

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GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:07 am
maryhelena wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:39 am Did the ''earliest Christians (get) it wrong'' ?

The gospel story being what it is - has allowed multiple interpretations. In other words - heresy. (I don't know the numbers but would be interesting to know if any other religion has as many sects as does Christianity). Hans Kung wrote:

Much more startling than the fact that the young Church was regarded as a 'heresy' is the fact that from the very beginning there were heresies within the Church. This shows that heresy is not a chance historical phenomenon, but something that is bound up with the nature of the Church.

Hans Kung: The Church

It's bound up with the nature of money, IMHO. According to my own 'head canon', Christianity became popular because it worked. Jesus had become a mystery god in heaven whom could be invoked by anyone, with people apparently being healed and devils exorcised. Christianity was a cottage industry run by independent religious entrepreneurs as a money making scheme, in the same way other cults in the Roman Empire did. We have Peregrinus and Alexander the false prophet as examples. Schisms developed because they become prophet-able (pun intended!) They became more profitable if they could tap into already existing beliefs like Greek philosophy and Egytian mysticism.
maryhelena wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:39 amSo - did the early Christians writers, the church fathers, get it wrong ? Indeed they did. They read the gospel story as a historical story. The gospel figure of Jesus was interpreted as a historical figure. Was this historicists interpretation of the gospel story the intention of the gospel writers ? We don't have any sworn statements to that effect.... :problem:
They didn't care about the historical Jesus. That's pretty obvious from the earliest sources. We care, so we assume they must have cared. But they didn't AFAICS. People only started caring when the Gospels began to become authoritative in the Second Century.
:thumbup:

And the gospel writers...... Probably turning in their graves....
rgprice
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

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My reconstruction would also explain why in the Gospel of John, there is no mention of John the Baptist getting arrested (except the obviously late interjection of 3:24). Notice that Herod is entirely missing from John. That's because Herod isn't original to the narrative and wasn't in the version that the writer of John worked from.

I would postulate that in the version that the writer of first layer of John worked from John was taken away to heaven, but this writer wanted John to stick around as a witness. There was no concept of John being arrested at all. There was no sense that John was in danger. John simply wasn't taken up to heaven so his ministry kept going.
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Giuseppe
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

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Do you assume that John the Baptist, in proto-Mark, was on the same side of Jesus, since he was taken away by the same god of Jesus? That he was not an enemy of Jesus?

I ask since I think that there is a rivalry between Jesus and John and this is evident even in Mark, where, as it has noted already in past, "it is noteworthy that scant words of praise for the Baptist are to be found in Mark".
rgprice
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

Post by rgprice »

Well there is no question that John represents Elijah in the Markan narrative. Does Jesus represent Elisha or any other Jewish figure, or is Jesus compared to these other figures as one who surpasses them? If Jesus is acting "as Elisha" then he is on the "same side" as John. If Jesus is just "surpassing Elisha" then perhaps he is not. Clearly the writer of Mark uses many passages from the Jewish scriptures as inspiration for his/her scenes, but in virtually all cases he is using those scriptures "against" the Jews. Still, its not clear that this writer envisions Jesus as coming from a separate God.
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Giuseppe
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

The coldness about John in Mark may be derived from a rival narrative about John as giver of grace.

The fact that Mark has well two accounts of the feeding of multitudes can be seen in polemical terms against John, since it reiterates the point that it is Jesus who is feeding spiritually the crowd in the wilderness, not John.

Assuming that was the case, then the probability that John started as a rival alternative to Jesus increases, beyond the identity of the earliest gospel (if proto-Mark or *Ev or a hypothetical lost proto-gospel).
StephenGoranson
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

Post by StephenGoranson »

So far I have not seen any reason to take this proposed "recreation" seriously.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: My recreation of the opening of the First Gospel

Post by GakuseiDon »

rgprice wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:10 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:52 pm This is probably how Marcion went about things.
I don't disagree. I think there were earlier versions of the narrative that were more open to "Gnostic" interpretation, or led to "Gnostic" interpretation. The idea that someone would start out with a Gospel like Matthew or canonical Luke and then modify or change it in order to arrive at the belief that Jesus was a pure spirit from heaven doesn't make sense.
I would disagree, if we are looking at the commonly held beliefs around timings: Paul --> Mark --> Matthew/Luke --> John --> Marcion's *Ev.

In Paul and Mark, Jesus is arguably a Jewish man born normally who is taken by God to heaven like Elijah and Philo's Moses. In Matthew/Luke, Jesus is a man born of a Jewish virgin under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In John, Jesus is the incarnated Logos who is born as a man. In Marcion, Jesus is a spirit not born as a man at all.

In Marcion we see the ideas that the material world is corrupt, created by an ignorant being which thought of itself as God. Thus the need to remove any origin by flesh, which is part of the material world. That is a pagan idea. In Jewish thought, the world created by God was good.

I guess if one regards the timing differently the analysis would vary.
rgprice wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:10 amIt must be that the belief that Jesus was a spirit from heaven originated from stories that more clearly said he was a spirit from heaven.
It's not just the idea that Jesus was a spirit from heaven that needs to be considered. It's also that the Creator god was either ignorant or evil. Your theory would need to explain why that would get flipped. AFAICS it is explainable by Christianity starting out as Jewish and then adopting Greek philosophical ideas as it expanded into the Roman empire, with Marcion a pagan product of that expansion. I find it harder to believe that the initial story had Jesus descending to fight an ignorant/evil Creator Jewish god, and then Jews adopting that story to modify it.
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