Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

[DCHindley]

Yes, I see what you are saying,

Somewhere else, or earlier in this thread, I had expressed that Hebrews expresses High Christology more cleanly than the Christological statements in the letters, which are rougher, with Christ doctrines not always consistent between letters. Hebrews is more polished, which I consider a sign of later-ness. I am not sure it is based on the Christological statements in the letters, though.

The commentator, a holder of a "high" christology, and the statements about Jesus as a divine redeemer called Christ from writers of the Gospels, could represent different expressions of a common tradition. We just happen to get samples from both traditions, taken at different times, so they are somewhat different but overall very similar.

DCH

[Vanished]

Currently working on a document detailing any direct references made by early Church Fathers to the Old & New Testament. This should help provide dates for the spread (not necessarily the authorship) of the Pauline epistles and other NT/OT books.

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.

[ebion]

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.

Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.

[Vanished]

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.

Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.

At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.

[Peter Kirby]

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.

Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.

At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.

IMO, keep working on it.

If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.

[Vanished]

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.

Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.

At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.

IMO, keep working on it.

If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.

I think I'll wrap up with adding Clement's references, then move from there. After all, all of the canonical books were written before or within the lifetime of the Apostolic Fathers, even with late estimates, so that's all I should need for my purposes. I might return later and document references for other reasons.

[ebion]

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.

Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

IMO, keep working on it.
If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.

True but the feedback may help you improve the quality of the following. And it may help you focus on the ones which are more certain to be authentic, if you find that some have real problems in that regard.

[Peter Kirby]

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.

Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.

At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.

IMO, keep working on it.

If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.

I think I'll wrap up with adding Clement's references, then move from there. After all, all of the canonical books were written before or within the lifetime of the Apostolic Fathers, even with late estimates, so that's all I should need for my purposes. I might return later and document references for other reasons.

This search tool might help: https://www.biblindex.org/citation_biblique/?lang=en

[Vanished]

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.

Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.

Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.

At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.

IMO, keep working on it.

If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.

I think I'll wrap up with adding Clement's references, then move from there. After all, all of the canonical books were written before or within the lifetime of the Apostolic Fathers, even with late estimates, so that's all I should need for my purposes. I might return later and document references for other reasons.

This search tool might help: https://www.biblindex.org/citation_biblique/?lang=en

Thanks so much! I used that when researching 1 and 2 Clement, made things a lot easier. It's not a perfect resource seeing as some citations were missing and some dubious citations were included, but it certainly is a great start and I'll be sure to use it more in the future when needed

I've started a new thread with the info I've found from this research, if you're interested: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11498

I'm going to bed now.

[ebion]

There is no date most often used for a Marcionite View of Hebrews and Titus - they're not in his canon.
Maybe take them out of the "Marcionite View" entirely; Philemon might be questionable as well.

By Marcionite view, I don't mean the view of Marcion himself, I mean the view held (by some) today that Marcion authored many Pauline epistles. Hebrews still, you know, exists, and since there isn't a prevailing theory for its origin outside of the scholarly view, I've defaulted back to those.

I sincerely hope that the Marcionite view held (by some) today of Marcion is the view of Marcion himself.

I mean the view held (by some) today that Marcion authored many Pauline epistles holds that there is no View of Hebrews and Titus as they're not in his canon. Do you have anything you can point to from say Moll or Baur or Harnack that says so - I'd be interested in seeing it.

I also mean the view held (by almost everyone) today of the Pauline epistles holds that there is no View of Hebrews as it's not written by Paul or Marcion. Which is why I'm interested in a concensus on who wrote it and when it was written: if it was written before Marcion, he may have willfully excluded it, like he did Matthew.

PS: FWIW Vaticanus lacks 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon and Revelation.