Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by Giuseppe »

Only 4 options:
  • 1) Louis-Gordon Rylands (mythicist): the historical Paul was an anti-demiurgist (a kind of 'Simon Magus').
  • 2) Joseph Turmel (historicist): the historical Paul was an anti-Roman nationalist, even if he didn't appeal explicitly to violence.
  • 3) Alfred Loisy (historicist): the historical Paul was an eager apocalypticist.
  • 4) Prosper Alfaric (mythicist): the historical Paul was a liberal Essene.
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MrMacSon
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re: Paul

Post by MrMacSon »

Given the listed options, the question should probably be:
  • 'what was Paul' ?
Or, perhaps,
  • how might one categorize Paul ?
Or, perhaps,
  • how might one categorize the overall main themes of the extant orthodox Pauline epistles?

    Which rIses the question:
    • how might one compare the overall main themes of the extant orthodox Pauline epistles with reconstructions of the Marcionite versions of the Pauline epistles ?
Charles Wilson
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Re: Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by Charles Wilson »

The character "Paul" is based on Mucianus, Procurator of Syria.

Mucianus loved Titus, who convinced him to commit to Vespasian. This was the "Vision on the Road to Damascus".

Tacitus, Histories, Book 2:

"Vespasian was an energetic soldier; he could march at the head of his army, choose the place for his camp, and bring by night and day his skill, or, if the occasion required, his personal courage to oppose the foe. His food was such as chance offered; his dress and appearance hardly distinguished him from the common soldier; in short, but for his avarice, he was equal to the generals of old. Mucianus, on the contrary, was eminent for his magnificence, for his wealth, and for a greatness that transcended in all respects the condition of a subject; readier of speech than the other, he thoroughly understood the arrangement and direction of civil business. It would have been a rare combination of princely qualities, if, with their respective faults removed, their virtues only could have been united in one man. Mucianus was governor of Syria, Vespasian of Judaea. In the administration of these neighbouring provinces jealousy had produced discord between them, but on Nero's fall they had dropped their animosities and associated their counsels. At first they communicated through friends, till Titus, who was the great bond of union between them, by representing their common interests had terminated their mischievous feud. He was indeed a man formed both by nature and by education to attract even such a character as that of Mucianus. The tribunes, the centurions, and the common soldiers, were brought over to the cause by appeals to their energy or their love of license, to their virtues or to their vices, according to their different dispositions..."

CW
StephenGoranson
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Re: Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Based on what you wrote, CW, I do not see any reason to think that Paul "is based on Mucianus," governor of Syria.
Do you have any better reason to claim that?
davidmartin
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Re: Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by davidmartin »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:48 am Only 4 options:
  • 1) Louis-Gordon Rylands (mythicist): the historical Paul was an anti-demiurgist (a kind of 'Simon Magus').
  • 2) Joseph Turmel (historicist): the historical Paul was an anti-Roman nationalist, even if he didn't appeal explicitly to violence.
  • 3) Alfred Loisy (historicist): the historical Paul was an eager apocalypticist.
  • 4) Prosper Alfaric (mythicist): the historical Paul was a liberal Essene.
It would be fascinating if someone could detect an underlying layer. I wonder if it could have been gentle meditations in a homily type format which got embellished with a Paul 'dealing' with various schisms contemporary to the revisers time and presenting a Paul gospel that reflected his own idea of the gospel. The advantage to this would be a 'before' and 'after' picture way bigger in scope than focusing on Marcionite vs Orthodox revisions. But it could get messy. Not sure anyone would want to attempt it unless it didn't actually make them nuts and it's been done
Charles Wilson
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Re: Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by Charles Wilson »

SG --

Why do you persist with this? I've been Posting on this for many, many years. I've tried to engage you in an exchange, asking you, for example, to verify who was on Duty for Mishmarot Service at the 4 BCE Passover and Feast and you refused to even try.
Why interact now?
I don't need snark.

Tell you what I'll do: I've Posted on these subjects many times and if you've read what I have written as you claim, you'll know the answers to these. I'll Map-Out Mucianus a bit if you make the effort.

1. Acts 5: 10, in part: "...Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

I believe this Passage is about a particular Historical person. Which person? Why? What is so interesting about the Historical Text from which this Passage is based?

2. Acts 6: 5: "And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Proch'orus, and Nica'nor, and Ti'mon, and Par'menas, and Nicola'us, a proselyte of Antioch".

I believe that "Nicholaus, proselyte of Antioch" was a particular Historical figure. Who? Why, and why does this lead to Mucianus?

C'mon SG. Let's see if you're serious about examining another person's view of the NT - Mine.

CW
StephenGoranson
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Re: Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by StephenGoranson »

CW, I don't dispute how long you have posted.
Without trying to be snarky:
I do not know why you think who was on duty in 4 BC in this context is so key.
Nor do I understand why your mention of two verses in Acts is significant.
If you wish to explain why you think so, in plain language, I intend to read that.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Alright SG.
I just had Cataract surgery and I'll go 'til my eyes get buggy and then - You're on your own.
StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 2:35 pm 1. I do not know why you think who was on duty in 4 BC in this context is so key.
First, the OP here is "Paul". I've written a book on it all and you're welcome to read it.

Second, the Jewish part of the NT concerns a Story I see concerning the Mishmarot Priesthood that appears to have been stolen and rewritten by the Romans - Transvalued - to Roman Ends.

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/arti ... service-of

Pay very close attention to the "Priestly Guard" section. "Guard", "Watch" (In Mark, f'rinstance) are terms that have all been Transvalued. The terms go back to Jewish Sensibilities and the Priesthood - NOT the corrupt High Priestly Apparatus. The Jewish Priesthood was supposedly "Done away with..." No. The Story of an obliterated Culture is found here.

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3298-bilgah

1 Chronicles 24 tells of the Origins of the Priestly Apparatus. 24 Groups of Priests. HOW MANY GROUPS HAVE STORIES ATTACHED TO THEM? Not many. Of the Jewish Stories, "Jehoiarib" (SEE!: Eisenman and Wise , Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered. Jehoiarib was the "Leading Group" among the Hasmoneans [Hi, maryhelena!]). "Bilgah" was the 15th Group, "Immer" was the 16th. (Extremely important NOTE: "immer" and "Immar", (Strong's H563 and H564) are the SAME WORD, providing a ready made Word-Play).

Bilgah has committed an Offense against the Priesthood. The other Priestly Group even consider eliminating Bilgah and going with 23 Mishmarot Groups:. Thus:

John 1: 15 (RSV):

[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'")

This is elegant. Immer follows Bilgah in the Weekly Mishmarot Service in Jerusalem and also RANKS above Bilgah. THIS IS PRIESTLY and is a Clue to the Transvaluation that is to follow. These two Groups are the KEY to understanding a Coup attempt against Herod and the Romans in 4 BCE. BILGAH AND IMMER ARE ON MISHMAROT DUTY FOR THE PASSOVERS AND FEASTS OF 4 BC AND 9 CE. (Thus, there is no contradiction between the Synoptics and John. They describe two different Passovers.)
***
ON TO PAUL/MUCIANUS
Nor do I understand why your mention of two verses in Acts is significant.
Acts 5: 10, in part (RSV):

"...Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

This is simply GREAT. For those Doubters (and I was one) concerning the existence of Tacitus, Annals as real and not a Forgery, this (and Bill Thayer...) put my mind at rest. This is so good.


Part of my methodology is finding small words and phrases that are...weird and strange in their placement:

Matthew 5: 13 (RSV):

[13] "You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men.

"...It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men.

What a perfectly odd turn of a phrase. Without getting too argumentative, why would you throw a flavoring onto a road to be trodden under foot by men? Is it a small amount? Tons? Why on a road? After all, men would not be walking often off of a road...etc. and etc., arguments never ending. For now let's leave this as ODD.

My eyes are getting really buggy so I'll get you started on a Trail. You should be able to follow it and expand it on your own.

John tells the story of the Interregnum after Galba, Otho and Vitellius. The Key "ODD PHRASE" (Description, here) is the Vinegar on a Hyssop Stick put to the mouth of Vitellius...ummm..."Jesus":

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Vitellius":

"Beginning in this way, he regulated the greater part of his rule wholly according to the advice and whims of the commonest of actors and chariot-drivers, and in particular of his freedman Asiaticus. This fellow had immoral relations with Vitellius in his youth, but later grew weary of him and ran away. When Vitellius came upon him selling posca​18 at Puteoli, he put him in irons, but at once freed him again and made him his favourite..."

The Note 18 tells us that "posca" was "A drink made of sour wine or vinegar mixed with water"

Do I need to spell it out for anyone?

"Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

Tacitus, Annals, Book 11:

Narcissus rushed out, and ordered the centurions and the tribunes, who were on guard, to accomplish the deed of blood. Such, he said, was the emperor's bidding. Evodus, one of the freedmen, was appointed to watch and complete the affair. Hurrying on before with all speed to the gardens, he found Messalina stretched upon the ground, while by her side sat Lepida, her mother, who, though estranged from her daughter in prosperity, was now melted to pity by her inevitable doom, and urged her not to wait for the executioner. "Life," she said, "was over; all that could be looked for was honour in death." But in that heart, utterly corrupted by profligacy, nothing noble remained. She still prolonged her tears and idle complaints, till the gates were forced open by the rush of the new comers, and there stood at her side the tribune, sternly silent, and the freedman, overwhelming her with the copious insults of a servile tongue.

Then for the first time she understood her fate and put her hand to a dagger. In her terror she was applying it ineffectually to her throat and breast, when a blow from the tribune drove it through her. Her body was given up to her mother.

"Behold the feet..." Indeed.

Let us briefly then sketch out "The Vision on the Road to Mucianus".
As stated earlier, there is a List given in Acts 6 (RSV):

[1] Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists murmured against the Hebrews because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution.
[2] And the twelve summoned the body of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables.
[3] Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty.
[4] But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."
[5] And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Proch'orus, and Nica'nor, and Ti'mon, and Par'menas, and Nicola'us, a proselyte of Antioch.

Notice that in verse 1 the "Hellenists" are complaining that the Jews are killing the Greeks (See also: Jesus tells the Lunatic to go to the Decapolis and tell the People what he has done for them.) Notice also that "The 12" (Legions) don't want to wait on tables (That's Caesar's job). They want to Kick Ass and Take Names.

KEY PHRASE: "Nicola'us, a proselyte of Antioch".
Was there a Historical Figure who was Hero/Champion/Acolyte of Antioch? Of course there was:
Octavian, dba Augustus Caesar.

This is an Inverted List of of Caesars.
Who was "Stephen", the last on the List?
Galba? No. The Count is off. Otho? No description that follows matches. Otho is involved with the "Empty Tomb" but not here. Vitellius? Not even close.

Try "Frugi Piso" the four day Emperor.

There is immediately a Big Problem:
Acts 6: 15 (RSV):

[15] And gazing at him, all who sat in the council saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

AFAIK, no one ever described Galba's chosen successor with the "Face of an Angel". There was someone else who was, howver:

Tacitus, Histories, Book 4:

"While things were in this state, while there was division in the Senate, resentment among the conquered, no real authority in the conquerors, and in the country at large no laws and no Emperor, Mucianus entered the capital, and at once drew all power into his own hands. The influence of Primus Antonius and Varus Arrius was destroyed; for the irritation of Mucianus against them, though not revealed in his looks, was but ill-concealed, and the country, keen to discover such dislikes, had changed its tone and transferred its homage. He alone was canvassed and courted, and he, surrounding himself with armed men, and bargaining for palaces and gardens, ceased not, what with his magnificence, his proud bearing, and his guards, to grasp at the power, while he waived the titles of Empire. The murder of Calpurnius Galerianus caused the utmost consternation. He was a son of Caius Piso, and had done nothing, but a noble name and his own youthful beauty made him the theme of common talk; and while the country was still unquiet and delighted in novel topics, there were persons who associated him with idle rumours of Imperial honours. By order of Mucianus he was surrounded with a guard of soldiers. Lest his execution in the capital should excite too much notice, they conducted him to the fortieth milestone from Rome on the Appian Road, and there put him to death by opening his veins. Julius Priscus, who had been prefect of the Praetorian Guard under Vitellius, killed himself rather out of shame than by compulsion.

Stephen is a composite figure. Frugi morphs into Calpurnius Galerianus: "...He was a son of Caius Piso, and had done nothing, but a noble name and his own youthful beauty made him the theme of common talk."

1 Corinthians 1: 11 - 16 (RSV):

[11] For it has been reported to me by Chlo'e's people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren.
[12] What I mean is that each one of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apol'los," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ."
[13] Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
[14] I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Ga'ius;
[15] lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.
[16] (I did baptize also the household of Steph'anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)

Tacitus, Histories, Book 4 (Preceding the quote above...)

"...While things were in this state, while there was division in the Senate, resentment among the conquered, no real authority in the conquerors, and in the country at large no laws and no Emperor, Mucianus entered the capital, and at once drew all power into his own hands. The influence of Primus Antonius and Varus Arrius was destroyed; for the irritation of Mucianus against them, though not revealed in his looks, was but ill-concealed, and the country, keen to discover such dislikes, had changed its tone and transferred its homage. He alone was canvassed and courted, and he, surrounding himself with armed men, and bargaining for palaces and gardens, ceased not, what with his magnificence, his proud bearing, and his guards, to grasp at the power, while he waived the titles of Empire..."

The 1 Corinthians quote here is as close to a direct copy quote as you can find. Verse 1 => "While things were in this state..." and so on. The Piso Family (The House of Stephanas) ain't doing so good. There's Priscus and Gaius - "Oh, I'm sorry...I Mis-spelled their names."

We're just getting started but I must rest my eyes. I leave you for now with a thought. Symbolic Assignment is like flavoring a food to taste. Any one assignment of Symbolism may be as good as another. You need more than a hunch to make it work.
Piso? What happened to him? He was beheaded by Otho and his body was released to his wife who carried it to the Via Salaria - The Salt Road.

I leave to others to finish the Political Hopes of those who placed their hopes in Galba's choice.
We have pictures of the Piso Burial Coffins at the Salt Road.
"The Salt Road." Wonder what that means? /S
***
Done for the day. Eye drops time...

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by StephenGoranson »

CW
First, good luck with the cataract surgery! I may eventually need that.
I have not yet read your book on Paul. What title? Where available?
The rest of your post, if I may say so, I, so far, do not find persuasive.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Who is the historical Paul assuming that only few bits of the his epistles are genuine?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Mucianus:

https://books.google.com/books?id=AvcGA ... us&f=false

Even if you reject the Thesis, I invite you you to play "See-it-as". For example, see the Intervention of Titus between his father Vespasian and Mucianus as a See-it-as moment - Mucianus, capable of great feats of oration, idolizes Titus. If, as Atwill insists, it was the deification of Titus that was one of the original motivations for the NT, you may at least understand the "Vision on the Road to Damascus" as a Roman Device. As Atwill asserts,the Roman Purpose was to have the Jews worship Caesar without the Jews knowing it. Mucianus held Imperial Power in his hands and gave it all to Vespasian. It would make sense - a very cynical sense - to give Mucianus a place in the story of the Rise of the Flavians.

CW
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