Best evidence that Jesus was anti-Temple

[Giuseppe]

Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’”

(Mark 14:57-58)

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up

.
(John 2:19)

Even while preserving what is described as a false accusation in Mark as a logion of Jesus, "John" (author) is mitigating it by having "destroy" not in the first person singular.

The presence of Samaritans in Jesus's group, the fact that Jesus didn't eat the lamb at the last supper, the anti-Temple ideology in the ebionites, are not so persuasive as this particular item of the evidence.

[ebion]

The presence of Samaritans in Jesus's group,

There's a great line in John, where the Pharisees ask:

Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? (John 8:48 [KJV])

Jesus says he doesn't have a devil, but says nothing about not being a Samaritan :-,). What some people miss is that Samaritan has more than 1 meaning: 1) from the region of Samaria, and 2) of the Samaritan religion. The latter, which exists even today on the West Bank, is anti-Pharisee, Pentauech-only Hebrews.

(BTW, do you have any references for "the presence of Samaritans in Jesus's group"? I don't doubt it - I just don't know any references for it, and would like to have them.)

the anti-Temple ideology in the ebionites

The anti-Temple ideology of the Ebionaens could be explained by something else: James. Jesus' brother and successor, the leader of the pre-Ebionaen Jerusalem congregation, was murdered by the Sadducees, when a Roman governor was absent (the old one had died; and the new one had not arrived yet).

(BTW, do you have any references for "the anti-Temple ideology in the ebionites"? I don't doubt it - I just don't know any references for it, and would like to have them.)

[Giuseppe]

(BTW, do you have any references for "the presence of Samaritans in Jesus's group"? I don't doubt it - I just don't know any references for it, and would like to have them.)

John 4:38-41:

Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

(BTW, do you have any references for "the anti-Temple ideology in the ebionites"? I don't doubt it - I just don't know any references for it, and would like to have them.)

From the Gospel of the Ebionites quoted by Epiphanius:

‘I have come to abolish the sacrifices: if you do not cease from sacrificing, the wrath of God will not cease from weighing upon you’.

(adv. Haer. 30.22 and 30.16)

[ebion]

Thanks - I don't know John very well as I focus on Matthew like a good Ebionaen.

]From the Gospel of the Ebionites quoted by Epiphanius:

‘I have come to abolish the sacrifices: if you do not cease from sacrificing, the wrath of God will not cease from weighing upon you’.

(adv. Haer. 30.22 and 30.16)

Not wishing to nit-pick, but I'd call that anti-sacrifice not anti-Temple. I think you could argue that Jesus was anti-sacrifice without necessarily being anti-Temple. He was anti-Herod (Luke 12:32), but I'm not sure i could say he was anti-Temple, which might have been a problem for him as he was pro-Mosaic law.

James was very pro-Temple, but might have been anti-sacrifice - I don't think we know.

But I go on to conjecture the Ebionaens were anti-Temple, i.e. anti-Sadducee, because of the murder of James.

(Not that it mattered that much after the Romans got through with it a few years later.)

[Giuseppe]

anti-sacrifice not anti-Temple

If Jesus rejected all sacrificing, as the Gospel of the Ebionites goes, then that would necessarily involve a rejection of the sacrificial cult of the temple.

The point is that in the Synoptical stories of the Eucharist, we don't read that Jesus and the disciples eat the pascal lamb. This is 100% expected if Jesus rejected the sacrificial cult of the temple. No lamb, no temple.

[Giuseppe]

James was very pro-Temple,

no, he wasn't. I assume here James as label for 'early Jewish-Christians' since I don't think that James was brother of Jesus.
In short: "Luke" (author) invented the pro-Temple propaganda that the disciples prayed regularly in the temple etc to eclipse a previous tradition, one reflected in the speech of Stephan and really dating back to Jesus himself:

Acts 6:14

For we have heard him [=Stephan] say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”

[ebion]

From the Gospel of the Ebionites quoted by Epiphanius:

‘I have come to abolish the sacrifices: if you do not cease from sacrificing, the wrath of God will not cease from weighing upon you’.

(adv. Haer. 30.22 and 30.16)

Thanks - that's a great quote that I've overlooked. It's an example of where the "Gospel of the Hebrews/Ebionites" has a different theology from the current Matthew. That's against what I've been arguing in a different thread where I claimed that I had gone through the citations enough to convince myself there were no big differences.

In this case I think it's complementary to the theology in Matthew, but it should go on my list of significant, but not critical, differences, - thanks.

Part of the problem that I see here is: conjecture for the sake of argument that the "Gospel of the Hebrews" to be different from the "Gospel of the Ebionites" : the former being the proto-Matthew in HAramaic, and the latter being later, probably in Aramaic. The latter might have post-James Ebionaen ideas that went beyond proto-Matthew.

then that would necessarily involve a rejection of the sacrificial cult of the temple.

No: not for me: I could see Jesus calling for the end of the sacrifices, without calling for the end of the Temple - I would. Similarly, Jesus taking a whip to the moneychangers is anti-moneychangers_in_the_temple, not anti-Temple. And James was devout in the temple.

On the other hand, if I accept your argument, then I would conjecture that the Ebionaens were anti-ecclessiatical congregationalist flavoured. I can accept that...

(see also What to make of the Gospel of the Hebrews?)

[Giuseppe]

I could see Jesus calling for the end of the sacrifices, without calling for the end of the Temple - I would.

only two points:

• obviously it would be a great support for Christian apologetics to claim that Jesus wanted the abolition of the sacrifices, hence I don't go until there.

• The fact that Stephan is anti-Temple in Acts, i.e. in a Christian propaganda so blatantly pro-Temple (it invents that even Paul went to purify himself in the temple!) is decisive to consider that Jesus himself was anti-Temple (corollary: the James being pro-temple is a late invention along the lines of Acts). What I mean by 'Jesus being anti-temple' is that he wanted to replace it by a new (still earthly) temple, since a new temple implies a new king and viceversa. In addition, as you say, the old temple was too much connected with pro-Roman collaborators.

[schillingklaus]

Sacrifices were practised in early Christianity, as follows from the Roman canon missae.

James is wholesale fiction, as are all apostles and martyrs of old.

Everything ever written about that Jesus guy is largelt past teh destruction of the temple , thus it serves post-factually the justification of the destruction of temple judaism and then establishment of Roman Catholicism as the divinely predicted successor.

[Charles Wilson]

If you compute the Dates of the Passover and Feast for 4 BCE you will find that:

John 19: 31 (RSV, in part, emph. added):

[31] Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day...)

Bilgah is on Duty for the first part of this and at the Mishmarot Duty change on the Weekly Sabbath, Immer comes on Duty. "John" represents Bilgah and the created "Jesus" character represents Immer. Far from rejecting the Temple, the Original, the Story of the Priest - not a "Jesus" loyal to Rome - is LIVING the Mishmarot Service.

CW