Mark's downer Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Ulan wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:40 am Well, my last sentence tried to explain that.
Sorry I missed that.
It only starts looking weird a couple of years later when the war was lost in a final defeat, without any heavenly troops showing up.
If we entertain a pre-70 date for Mark (or really any date where people would have a different view/interpretation on Mark), that's an interesting point. How dark and downer you take something might indeed depend on what particular baggage you are bringing to the text.

Still, we have Jesus's last words being utter desperation, no disciples left, etc etc. And Mark's little apocalypse seems to indicate that Jerusalem is going to be destroyed, so get outta dodge. Wars, rumors of wars, but the end isn't yet, etc.... Hard to see how Mark is indicating any imminent arrival of angelic cavalry riding in to save the day.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by RandyHelzerman »

rgprice wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:29 am Getting at this late, but regarding the OP:
Glad you came tho, always interested in your take.
How are we supposed to get on board with such a program? What *is* the good news? Why would anybody write such a thing?
I believe the answer is that this was an introduction to a narrative about Paul, Acts of the Apostle, where Jesus appears to Paul and everything came together in his ministry.
One of the obstacles in our way of understanding Mark is the current cannon, which buries Mark as much as it can in the middle of other, more happy Gospels. But almost everybody who has read Mark--from Matthew and Luke, to the authors of the various later endings, get the impression that the story is incomplete, and that *something* has to follow it.

So hypothesizing that its *not* a standalone book, but just kind of a chapter with a cliffhanger ending, and it was originally part of some larger collection which has been obliterated by later cannons, i a very plausible hypothesis and, IMHO, a very promising line of research.

In support of your particular hypothesis, I've mentioned in other threads that the first couple chapters of Marcion's Galatians *is* pure, first person narrative about Paul, one which had many of the same characters (the 3 apostles) which feature in Mark, and many of the themes of Mark (that they just don't get it) and is perhaps the textual smoking gun you are looking for. I consider it as evidence in support of your view.

Perhaps those two chapters have been snipped off of a longer first person narrative about Paul, one which perhaps included the "we' passages of Acts (with 'I' searched-and-replaced by 'we', to give Luke some street cred). I don't have the text-critical skills to speak authoritatively as to how well those go together linguistically, stylistically, etc, but my (lay) ear can't detect any reason why they couldn't, and I hope somebody who *does* have those skills will take this hypothesis seriously enough to investigate it.

The cannon as we have it *does* contain the gospels, followed by a lengthy narrative about Paul (and other apostles), followed by a letter collection, and I take that as evidence in support of your hypothesis as well. Gospel(s) followed by a narrative about Paul *is* a discernible pattern we do see in cannons.

Perhaps there was an ancestral cannon, consisting of Mark, followed by a narrative about Paul, introducing a collection of some of Pauls letters. And perhaps as the letter collection was expanded to include letters from more apostles, the narrative was also expanded to include stories about them as well. On this view, Marcion's cannon wound't be the first cannon, but one of the intermediate reshufflings, consisting of an expanded gospel, with some of the narrative elements distributed across the letters. The current cannon might be another reshuffling of Marcion's, or they may have thought the best way to domesticate Marcion and Paulinism would be to go back to that earlier cannon and expand that.

Like I said, I'm not really in a position to speak definitively about this, but I don't see anything obviously wrong about it, and I hope others will pitch in and kick the tires of this hypothesis as well.
John2
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by John2 »

dbz wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:23 am
John2 wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:07 pm Jesus is also Torah observant in Mark and teaches others to observe the Torah (also right from the get-go), e.g., 1:44 ("But go, show yourself to the priest and present the offering Moses prescribed for your cleansing, as a testimony to them").

Whatever "darkness" is in Mark seems baked into to the idea of the End Time and the Messiah (the Last Judgement and such), but it's not as if all Jews were doomed. The Dead Sea Scrolls also expect their Jewish opponents to meet a bad end at the End Time, and that doesn't make them antisemitic. It's quite the contrary, in fact, and I see Mark in a similar light.
Per Mark 1:44, Jesus was highlighting faith and obedience. The question is if he is referring to Paul's Uber-Torah vs the Jew's Unter-Torah religion.

Or perhaps Jesus was trying to avoid drawing attention to himself. He had just performed a miraculous healing, and he may have been concerned that word of it would get out.

Jesus healing the man on the Sabbath (Mark 3:1-6). According to Jewish law, it was forbidden to work on the Sabbath, and healing was considered a form of work. Jesus' actions could therefore be seen as a violation of the Torah.

Jesus doesn't break the Sabbath in Mark, he just had a different interpretation of what constitutes work than the Pharisees did. Rabbinic Judaism today allows for healing on the Sabbath. Does that make Rabbinic Jews Sabbath breakers?

Jesus driving the money-changers out of the Temple (Mark 11:15-19). Jesus' actions could therefore be seen as a "destruction" of the Temple.

Jesus was inspired by the OT (“Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers'," which gives me the impression that he thought the Temple merchants and money changers were ripping people off (cf. Lev. 19:35-36). And the crowd appears to have been on his side ("When the chief priests and scribes heard this, they looked for a way to kill him. For they were afraid of him, because the whole crowd was astonished at his teaching").

The Markan author is responsive to the temple cult's destruction and its Jewish Unter-Torah religion.

Ultimately the Markan author is saying that the temple cult and its Jewish Unter-Torah religion has become deprecated/destroyed.

Jesus is pro-written Torah and anti-oral Torah (aka "the tradition of the elders"), as he explains in Mk. 7:3-13:

Now in holding to the tradition of the elders, the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat until they wash their hands ceremonially ... So the Pharisees and scribes questioned Jesus: “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders? Instead, they eat with defiled hands” ...

Jesus answered them, “Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites ... You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.”

He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), he is no longer permitted to do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by the tradition you have handed down. And you do so in many such matters.”

If Jesus were to likewise "nullify" or "set aside" or "disregard" what Moses said, then by his own argument he too would be a hypocrite.

And Jesus isn't even opposed to all of the oral Torah, only when it "nullifies the word of God"/"commandment of God"/what "Moses said." He says Pharisees do this "in many such matters" and not in all matters. Jesus is okay with tefillin and shares the Pharisaic belief in resurrection, for examples (which is why he only criticizes the Sadducees on that point).
Ulan
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by Ulan »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:59 am
Ulan wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:40 am It only starts looking weird a couple of years later when the war was lost in a final defeat, without any heavenly troops showing up.
If we entertain a pre-70 date for Mark (or really any date where people would have a different view/interpretation on Mark), that's an interesting point. How dark and downer you take something might indeed depend on what particular baggage you are bringing to the text.

Still, we have Jesus's last words being utter desperation, no disciples left, etc etc. And Mark's little apocalypse seems to indicate that Jerusalem is going to be destroyed, so get outta dodge. Wars, rumors of wars, but the end isn't yet, etc.... Hard to see how Mark is indicating any imminent arrival of angelic cavalry riding in to save the day.
Well, let's look into the "little apocalypse" in gMark, Mk13:
24 “But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels and gather the[e] elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

The message is somewhat like what Jehovas Witnesses do every few years: "The end is very close, and this time, it's for real! You will suffer for a short time, but the believers will be saved in a glorious show of force." As with the JW predictions, nothing happened, and the story had to be rewritten.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by RandyHelzerman »

John2 wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:19 pm
dbz wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:23 am Jesus healing the man on the Sabbath (Mark 3:1-6). According to Jewish law, it was forbidden to work on the Sabbath, and healing was considered a form of work. Jesus' actions could therefore be seen as a violation of the Torah.
Jesus doesn't break the Sabbath in Mark, he just had a different interpretation of what constitutes work than the Pharisees did. Rabbinic Judaism today allows for healing on the Sabbath. Does that make Rabbinic Jews Sabbath breakers?
Not to make any specific point here, just to toss in an interesting tidbit: John P Meier (of "Jesus, A Marginal Jew" fame) said that he did a deep-dive into any and all Jewish laws, oral or otherwise, and he couldn't find a single law which actually prohibited healing on the Sabbath. On the contrary, there was plenty of president for it.

Which is really weird, because Mark & co do make a big deal of it.
dbz wrote: Perhaps the author of gMark did not savvy Paul's antinomian viewpoint or consider it worth his time to address.
Here I will poke my nose in a bit :-) Even today, there's no real consensus on Paul's views about exactly how much of the OT law is still applicable. Paul is by no means clear himself on this; indeed, we may see his views evolving and changing on this from letter to letter, so there may not even be a coherent theology there to get right. Everybody who has grappled with this, from the author of Luke/Acts talking about the Jerusalem council, on out, seems to judiciously leave things as ambiguous as the source material in Paul does. And Mark follows suit here. Jesus clearly rejects some laws, but on others (e.g. categorically forbidding divorce) he's even *more* strict than Moses was. And exactly where the line should be drawn, what's in and what's out, is never clearly delineated here any more than it is anywhere else.

As one modern sophist said, "English is ambiguous for a reason. Use that ambiguity to your advantage every chance you get."
Ulan
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by Ulan »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:17 pmAnd Mark follows suit here. Jesus clearly rejects some laws, but on others (e.g. categorically forbidding divorce) he's even *more* strict than Moses was.
Which ones does he reject? I don't see him reject any of the written laws. He seems to reject the very strict interpretations that came with the oral law.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Ulan wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 3:09 pm Which ones does he reject?
Fair question, and one that is easily botched. The facile answer of "washing hands" won't wash, of course, because there's no written law for that.

And yeah, interpretation of laws vs change of laws is an important distinction to keep in mind, however little difference that distinction makes to practice. You can get the same change in practice from either changing the law or changing the interpretation of the law.

But there is one change to practice which I don't think can be swept under the rug of a changing interpretation, and that is when Jesus "makes all things clean" in Mark 7. The whole clean/unclean edifice of the Torah from food, to touching lepers and menstruating women, is something Jesus clearly thinks is obsolete and needs to be nullified.

P.S. to all you sons and daughters of Peter out there, yeah I know--from hard experience--that there are those who argue that Jesus didn't *really* get rid of the dietary restrictions. I used to believe that myself, and sat glum-faced when they were passing around the Oreo cookies in elementary school (back then they were made with lard) or when we had pepperoni pizza for school lunch. Save it: I've said it all before and heard it all before, but Mark 7 says what it says.
Ulan
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by Ulan »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 4:19 pm But there is one change to practice which I don't think can be swept under the rug of a changing interpretation, and that is when Jesus "makes all things clean" in Mark 7.
That's right. The wording there is unambiguous.
RParvus
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by RParvus »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:17 pm
Not to make any specific point here, just to toss in an interesting tidbit: John P Meier (of "Jesus, A Marginal Jew" fame) said that he did a deep-dive into any and all Jewish laws, oral or otherwise, and he couldn't find a single law which actually prohibited healing on the Sabbath. On the contrary, there was plenty of president for it.

Which is really weird, because Mark & co do make a big deal of it.
I’m sure you meant “precedent”, not “president.”

The Sadducee position about the Sabbath was stricter than that of the Pharisees. Unfortunately, no Sadducee documents have survived, and that may explain why Meier didn’t find any prohibitions of Sabbath-healing. Hyam Maccoby, a Jewish scholar, concedes that “it may well be that, unlike the Pharisees, they” (the Sadducees) forbade healing on the Sabbath.”

Now if the author of GMark did in fact transfer Sadducee positions over to the Pharisees, this could be another indication that GMark was written late. That is, written so late that the Sadducees were no longer on the scene and religious leadership of the Jews had fallen entirely to the Pharisees. The author of GMark would have seen the Jewish leadership of his own time, which was Pharisee, as his competitors; and to make them look bad he put in their mouths arguments whose actual sources were earlier Sadducees. Maybe enough time had passed that he could reasonably expect that his intended audience would not detect the inaccuracy.
RParvus
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Re: Mark's downer Gospel

Post by RParvus »

John2 wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:19 pm
Jesus doesn't break the Sabbath in Mark, he just had a different interpretation of what constitutes work than the Pharisees did.
Perhaps for the historical Jesus it was a matter of interpretation. But I suspect that the author of GMark was Simonian and that, for him, it went far beyond that. Sabbath Law interpretation might be ok for showing your opponents that they don’t even understand their own law, but it is hardly necessary when your Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Mk. 2:28).
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