(viewtopic.php?p=159200#p159200)
This whole Marcion issue, the 15th year of Tiberius, has led to the accusation of mutilating Luke. However, the gospel story has never been static - Luke, for instance, with his 15th year of Tiberius storyline, has moved the story along. i.e. other gospels, John, Mark and Matthew have only dated their Jesus stories to the time of Pilate. Leaving open the possibility of other dates for their Jesus and crucifixion stories under Pilate. Hence, one can't really argue that the 15th year of Tiberius was always the required date. (dating Pilate still a matter of some debate among scholars).
The Slavonic Josephus has it's Anointed One nativity story prior to the 15th year of Herod. The 15th year of Herod, the 15th year of Tiberius. Evidently the Jesus story timeline was not fixed - all that seems to be fixed - now - is the 15th year of Tiberius. But is this the date of the text in Marcion's procession ? I'm not suggesting that Marcion had the 15th year of Herod. The Jesus story moves along.......Somewhere along the transmission line the 15th year of Herod gets dropped. Did Marcion drop this date and simply have in the time of Pilate ? - This would, of course, place his text in line with the gospels of John, Mark and Matthew. i.e. a safe, uncontroversial setting prior to the gospel of Luke and it's 15 year of Tiberius.
The Slavonic Josephus has it's Anointed One nativity story prior to the 15th year of Herod. The 15th year of Herod, the 15th year of Tiberius. Evidently the Jesus story timeline was not fixed - all that seems to be fixed - now - is the 15th year of Tiberius. But is this the date of the text in Marcion's procession ? I'm not suggesting that Marcion had the 15th year of Herod. The Jesus story moves along.......Somewhere along the transmission line the 15th year of Herod gets dropped. Did Marcion drop this date and simply have in the time of Pilate ? - This would, of course, place his text in line with the gospels of John, Mark and Matthew. i.e. a safe, uncontroversial setting prior to the gospel of Luke and it's 15 year of Tiberius.
I’ve been reconsidering that statement in red: I’m now suggesting that an earlier version of Marcion’s Evangelion originally reference the 15th year of Herod. Yes, seemingly, all available reconstructions of Marcion’s texts contain the 15th year of Tiberius for Pilate in Judaea. A dating that itself has no external to Josephus historical evidence. Be that as it may - this Josephus dating in Antiquities places the reconstructed Marcion Evangelium post 93/94 c.e. However a number of NT scholars have proposed that the Evangelium did not mutilate the gospel of Luke.
Matthias Klinghardt, the Josephus dating of Pilate not withstanding, has suggested that the Evangelion is in fact the earliest gospel - a gospel prior to Mark, Matthew and Luke. If this is the case, if the Evangelion is the earliest gospel, that it is prior to Luke (a gospel reliant upon Antiquities dating of Pilate) then arguments can be made that it could be prior to the Josephan dating of Pilate in Antiquities. In which case, the Evangelion reconstructions that scholars are compiling are utilizing an update version i.e. that the name of Herod has changed to that of Tiberius.
(Klinghardt, Matthias. The Oldest Gospel: A Missing Link in New Testament Scholarship (pp. 13-14). Quiet Waters Publications. Kindle Edition.)
The question presents itself - was there an earlier Jesus and Pilate story that used a different 15 year date ? Indeed there was. Slavonic Josephus and it’s birth narrative prior to the 15th year of Herod. Interestingly, this Slavonic Josephus birth narrative had already, prior to the gospel of Luke, been itself updated. The gospel of Matthew adding that Jesus was a young child in the time of Archelaus. (4 b.c. to 6 c.e.) The gospel of Luke went further, updating the birth narrative to the time of Augustus and Quirinius in 6.c.e. (the end of the rule of Archelaus).
Consequently, with these two updates to the birth narratives, an update to the Evangelion, from the 15th year of Herod to the 15th year of Tiberius would simply be a reflection of the development of the Jesus and Pilate story.
Until Antiquities in 93/94 c.e. there was no specific dating for Pilate.( Philo only has Pilate in the time of Tiberius.) Hence, any gospel prior to Antiquities had no specific dating, within the time of Tiberius, for Pilate. Only with the gospel of Luke, nearing the end of the time of Tiberius, was the age of the crucified Jesus figure limited. i.e. a Jesus figure born in 6 c.e. could not be more than 30 years old when Pilate was removed and Tiberius dies in 36/37 c.e. But that 30 years for the Jesus figure is determined by the removal of Pilate and the death of Tiberius. Other dates for both a nativity and a crucifixion, prior to the gospel of Luke are possible.
This, of course, suggests that multiple birth and crucifixion dates do not support a historical gospel related Jesus.
In previous posts I’ve suggested that the gospel of John is the earliest gospel. Apart from this gospel indicating that it’s Jesus figure is not yet 50 years prior to a crucifixion, this gospel also indicates that it is not recording the life of a human flesh and blood Jesus.
Philo on the Logos:
‘’Genesis 2:4 (LXX) provides Philo with further motifs to discuss the role of the Logos: “This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4).31 This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas. [Moses] calls “book” the divine Logos, in which are inscribed and engraved the structures of other things. In order that you may not suppose that the deity creates something according to definite periods of time, but may understand that the creation is beyond human perception, definition, and comprehension, he adds “when it came into being,” not defining time by a concrete figure. (All. 1.19–20)
Philo explores here the multiple meanings of the word “Logos,” which range from “word” and “book” to “rationality.” He identifies the biblical motif of a book as a reference to a superior Logos, which provides a rational structure to the world and is connected to the Platonic Ideas. While the latter are taken for granted, Philo self-consciously offers new ideas about the Logos. He is highly aware of the fact that his readers may be surprised, wondering himself whether “it is possible to say so.” The Logos is described in terms of the Pythagorean theory of numbers and then credited with a special role in the creation. Philo regards it as “the beginning” or source of the creation, suggesting an ideal creation that is not governed by such material qualities as time. Relying on Platonic and Pythagorean notions, Philo introduces radically new conceptions. Within the Platonic tradition he argues for the first time that the Ideas are not eternal but have been created by God. Within the Jewish tradition he is the first to suggest that the creation of the world has been anticipated by an ideal creation brought about by the Logos.
……..
For him it is clear that God must have initiated the creation of the Ideas via the Logos. “By his own supremely manifest and far-shining Logos,” he explains, “God creates both the Idea of the mind, which he [Moses] symbolically calls ‘heaven,’ and the Idea of sense perception, which he figuratively calls ‘earth’” (All. 1.21).
Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp.219-20). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.
Philo explores here the multiple meanings of the word “Logos,” which range from “word” and “book” to “rationality.” He identifies the biblical motif of a book as a reference to a superior Logos, which provides a rational structure to the world and is connected to the Platonic Ideas. While the latter are taken for granted, Philo self-consciously offers new ideas about the Logos. He is highly aware of the fact that his readers may be surprised, wondering himself whether “it is possible to say so.” The Logos is described in terms of the Pythagorean theory of numbers and then credited with a special role in the creation. Philo regards it as “the beginning” or source of the creation, suggesting an ideal creation that is not governed by such material qualities as time. Relying on Platonic and Pythagorean notions, Philo introduces radically new conceptions. Within the Platonic tradition he argues for the first time that the Ideas are not eternal but have been created by God. Within the Jewish tradition he is the first to suggest that the creation of the world has been anticipated by an ideal creation brought about by the Logos.
……..
For him it is clear that God must have initiated the creation of the Ideas via the Logos. “By his own supremely manifest and far-shining Logos,” he explains, “God creates both the Idea of the mind, which he [Moses] symbolically calls ‘heaven,’ and the Idea of sense perception, which he figuratively calls ‘earth’” (All. 1.21).
Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp.219-20). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.
What I take from that is the Logos is not a flesh and blood figure - rather, the Logos is our intellect, or rationality, or reason. It is the human intellect, the mind of man, that creates the environment in which we live. As such, the Logos, the human mind or intellect, can have many births and crucifixion. Human knowledge, intellectual evolution, lives and dies as progress is made in our understanding of ourselves. Ideas can ‘save’ or they can ‘enslave’ They can fade away when they have no further use - or they can cling on to their glory days and require the axe to fall.
Thus, it is with the gospel of John in mind, that I’ve approached the problem of Marcion’s Evangelion and it’s 15th year of Tiberius.
Below is a new chart setting out how a now see the development of the Jesus and Pilate story.
==========
| Gospels | Comments |
| Gospel of John: Jesus not yet 50 years old. 7 x 7 = 49 years. Use of Daniel ch.9 and it's 70 weeks of years. Utilizing this numbers formula as a time frame in which to set out the gospel Jesus story. Time of Pilate. | Philo: (This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4).31 This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas). (All. 1.19–20) Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp.219-20). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition. Philo: Embassy of Gaius dates Pilate to the time of Tiberius. |
| Matthew version One. Slavonic Josephus birth narrative in the 15th year of Herod. The 15th year of Herod is arrived at via use of Daniel ch. 9. 25 b.c. is around 490 years from the rededication of the Jerusalem temple in 516/515 b.c. | '25 b.c. birth narrative. No crucifixion date. The anointed, Jesus figure, being not yet 50 years old, re the gospel of John, would put a crucifixion date prior to 24 c.e. Until Antiquities no specific dating for Pilate available. Josephus places the TF in a context of 19 c.e. Indicating a crucifixion under Pilate in that year - a Jesus figure born in 25 b.c. would be abound 44 years old in 19 c.e. This birth narrative requires an Evangelion dated to the 15th year of Herod... |
| Matthew version Two. Birth narrative prior to Archelaus (4 b.c. to 6 c.e.)Jesus a young child on return from Egypt. The addition of Archelaus has moved away from, updated, Matthew version One. | Following the gospel of John, Jesus is not yet 50 years old at crucifixion. The end of Tiberius rule is 37 c.e. - 49 years back is around 12/11 b.c. for a Matthew version 2 birth narrative. The Jesus figure being around 8 or 7 years old at death of Herod and rule of Archelaus. This dating requires a 15th year of Tiberius and Pilate dating - i.e. Marcion's Evangelion. Crucifixion between the 15th year of Tiberius and the removal of Pilate 36/37 c.e.. |
| Gospel of Luke. 'Gospel of Luke. 15th year of Tiberius and a 6 c.e. birth narrative. | Luke has used the 15th year of Tiberius, 29/30 c.e. to trace back the history of the years from which the Jesus and Pilate story developed. Birth narrative in 6 c.e. is around 70 years from 63 b.c. The 15th year of Tiberius is around 70 years back to 40 b.c. and Lysanias of Abilene. Luke, by added a third birth narrative to the Jesus and Pilate story has, as it were, condensed the history of the years from 63 b.c. to the end of the time of Pilate and Tiberius in 37 c.e. i.e. 100 years of Hasmonean history. Luke's crucifixion of the Jesus figure between 29/30 c.e. to 36/37 c.e. |
| Gospel of Mark. Of little use for tracing the development of the Jesus and Pilate story. | A synopsis or abstract designed to be all things to all people. All well and good - but the gospel story is bigger, and more troublesome, when read from the beginning. Mark's gospel is an easy on the eye snapshot, a condensing of the Jesus and Pilate story. |
=======================================================
Here is the birth narrative from Slavonic Josephus:
Page 179/180/181
Having so spoken (Herod)sent them off to the
innkeepers, escorting them with guards who were
to keep watch on them, and also appointing
other guards who knew the Persian tongue
to listen to what they said.
When they were closeted with a Persian who
was (there) they began to grieve, saying:
“Our fathers and our children have been excellent
astrologers, and, watching the stars, never lied.
And we too, taught by them have never distorted
the message of the stars. What can this be?
Deceit or error? The star image appeared to us
signifying the birth of (a) king
by whom the whole world will be held.
And gazing on that (star) we have been making
our way for a year and a half to this city; and we
have not found the son of (a)king. And the star
is (now)hidden from us. We have indeed been
deceived! But we shall send the gifts we had
prepared for the infant to the king and ask him
to let us(return) to our fatherland”.
And while they were thus speaking, the guards
came to the king and told him everything.
and he sent for the Persians.
But while they were on their way
that remarkable star appeared to them (again)
And they were filled with joy.
And they went by night to Herod with boldness.
And he said to them (confidentially), away from
everybody (else): “Why do you sadden my heart
and distress my soul by not speaking the truth?.
Why have you come here?”
They told him: “King, we have no double-talk.
But we are sons of Persia. Astronomy,
which is out science and our craft, our ancestors
took over from the Chaldeans. As we gazed on
the stars we have never been wrong.
And a star (of) ineffable (beauty) appeared to us,
separate from all (the other) stars.
For it was not one of the seven planets,
not one of the spearmen.
not one of the swordsmen,
not one of the archers, not one of the comets,
but it was exceedingly brilliant like the sun,
and it was joyful.
and gazing on it we have even reached you.
And while we were here, the star disappeared
right up to the present (moment). But now,
as we were coming to you, it appeared (again).
And Herod said: “Can you show it to me?’
And they said: “We reckon the whole world
sees it.” And they stepped out on to an open
porch and they showed him the star.
And when Herod saw it, he marvelled greatly.
and he worshipped God for he was a devout man.
And he gave them an escort (composed of (his
brother and (some) nobles,
to go and see the one born.
But as they were on their way the star
disappeared once more, and they came back again.
And the Persians begged him to let them go on
their own. (promising) that having sought out
(the child) they would come back and tell him.
And they swore him an oath, believing that
the star would tell them to return by that road.
And after waiting a year for them.
And they did not even come to (see) him.
And he was furious and summoned the priests
(who were his ) advisors and asked if any of
them understood (the meaning of)that star.
And they answered him:”It is written:
“A star shall shine forth from Jacob
and a man shall arise from Judah’.
And Daniel writes that a priest is to come,
but we do not know who this is. We reckon
that he will be born without a father.”
(Then) Herod said: “How can we discover him?”
and Levi said: Send throughout the whole land of
Judaea (asking)how many male infants have
been born since the Persians saw the star
right up to the present day, kill them all, and
that (child) will also be killed. And your
kingdom will be secure for you and your sons
and even for your great-grandsons”.
And immediately he sent forth heralds throughout
the whole land that all (of) the male sex born
from now and (back) to the third year are to be
honoured and to receive (a gift of)gold. (When)
enquiring whether any (male infant) had been born
without a father they were to pretend that (Herod)
would adopt him as his son and make him king.
And since they did not discover a single such
(infant), he gave orders to kill all
6 myriad and 3000 infants.
When all were weeping and waiting at the
shedding of blood, the priests came and begged
him to release the innocents; but he threatened
them all the more (telling them) to keep silent.
And they all fell prostrate and lay to the sixth hour
at his feet. And the king’s rage prevailed.
Later, they rose and told him:”Listen to your
servants, so that the Most High
may favour you. It is written that the
Anointed One is (to be)born in Bethlehem.
Even if you have no mercy on your servants,
kill those infants of Bethlehem and let the
others go”. And he gave the order and they
killed all the infants of Bethlehem.”
In the fifteenth year of his reign
he (re)built the temple
and renovated its walls,
Enclosing double the ground
and spending wealth untold.
embellishing it with beauties ineffable.
Josephus' Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison:
H. Leeming (Author), K. Leeming (Author)
Having so spoken (Herod)sent them off to the
innkeepers, escorting them with guards who were
to keep watch on them, and also appointing
other guards who knew the Persian tongue
to listen to what they said.
When they were closeted with a Persian who
was (there) they began to grieve, saying:
“Our fathers and our children have been excellent
astrologers, and, watching the stars, never lied.
And we too, taught by them have never distorted
the message of the stars. What can this be?
Deceit or error? The star image appeared to us
signifying the birth of (a) king
by whom the whole world will be held.
And gazing on that (star) we have been making
our way for a year and a half to this city; and we
have not found the son of (a)king. And the star
is (now)hidden from us. We have indeed been
deceived! But we shall send the gifts we had
prepared for the infant to the king and ask him
to let us(return) to our fatherland”.
And while they were thus speaking, the guards
came to the king and told him everything.
and he sent for the Persians.
But while they were on their way
that remarkable star appeared to them (again)
And they were filled with joy.
And they went by night to Herod with boldness.
And he said to them (confidentially), away from
everybody (else): “Why do you sadden my heart
and distress my soul by not speaking the truth?.
Why have you come here?”
They told him: “King, we have no double-talk.
But we are sons of Persia. Astronomy,
which is out science and our craft, our ancestors
took over from the Chaldeans. As we gazed on
the stars we have never been wrong.
And a star (of) ineffable (beauty) appeared to us,
separate from all (the other) stars.
For it was not one of the seven planets,
not one of the spearmen.
not one of the swordsmen,
not one of the archers, not one of the comets,
but it was exceedingly brilliant like the sun,
and it was joyful.
and gazing on it we have even reached you.
And while we were here, the star disappeared
right up to the present (moment). But now,
as we were coming to you, it appeared (again).
And Herod said: “Can you show it to me?’
And they said: “We reckon the whole world
sees it.” And they stepped out on to an open
porch and they showed him the star.
And when Herod saw it, he marvelled greatly.
and he worshipped God for he was a devout man.
And he gave them an escort (composed of (his
brother and (some) nobles,
to go and see the one born.
But as they were on their way the star
disappeared once more, and they came back again.
And the Persians begged him to let them go on
their own. (promising) that having sought out
(the child) they would come back and tell him.
And they swore him an oath, believing that
the star would tell them to return by that road.
And after waiting a year for them.
And they did not even come to (see) him.
And he was furious and summoned the priests
(who were his ) advisors and asked if any of
them understood (the meaning of)that star.
And they answered him:”It is written:
“A star shall shine forth from Jacob
and a man shall arise from Judah’.
And Daniel writes that a priest is to come,
but we do not know who this is. We reckon
that he will be born without a father.”
(Then) Herod said: “How can we discover him?”
and Levi said: Send throughout the whole land of
Judaea (asking)how many male infants have
been born since the Persians saw the star
right up to the present day, kill them all, and
that (child) will also be killed. And your
kingdom will be secure for you and your sons
and even for your great-grandsons”.
And immediately he sent forth heralds throughout
the whole land that all (of) the male sex born
from now and (back) to the third year are to be
honoured and to receive (a gift of)gold. (When)
enquiring whether any (male infant) had been born
without a father they were to pretend that (Herod)
would adopt him as his son and make him king.
And since they did not discover a single such
(infant), he gave orders to kill all
6 myriad and 3000 infants.
When all were weeping and waiting at the
shedding of blood, the priests came and begged
him to release the innocents; but he threatened
them all the more (telling them) to keep silent.
And they all fell prostrate and lay to the sixth hour
at his feet. And the king’s rage prevailed.
Later, they rose and told him:”Listen to your
servants, so that the Most High
may favour you. It is written that the
Anointed One is (to be)born in Bethlehem.
Even if you have no mercy on your servants,
kill those infants of Bethlehem and let the
others go”. And he gave the order and they
killed all the infants of Bethlehem.”
In the fifteenth year of his reign
he (re)built the temple
and renovated its walls,
Enclosing double the ground
and spending wealth untold.
embellishing it with beauties ineffable.
Josephus' Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison:
H. Leeming (Author), K. Leeming (Author)
==============================================
What the op suggests is the Jesus and Pilate story is not a haphazard affair. The thread running through the development of the story is the use of Philo's moving number 7 - the Logos and it's power to move forward our intellectual evolution. It's a story development involving, re Thomas Brodie, of a school of writers. Or an intellectual elite ( Robyn Faith Walsh). It is also a story that relies upon the Josephan Antiquities for it's Pilate dating.
===============
As of now - the above is how I'm understanding the Jesus and Pilate storyline development.