Meaning of Nazareth?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by RandyHelzerman »

rgprice wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 6:26 am I think it is a reasonable question to ask.
Sure, I don't want to give the wrong impression here, a healthy scholarship requires a dialect, where any question can be asked, and all results are subject to scrutiny. And every new idea starts out as a minority position--my own graduate work was on an obscure grammatical formalism, which 30 years later is now mainstream, so I've been one of these contrarian scholars myself. Its a huge risk though--I never even tried to get an academic position, because nobody gives you 30 years to get tenure. And, let's face it, most contrarian ideas turn out to be wrong.

*Somebody's* gotta take those risks, or new discoveries will never be made--but the better you *understand* those risks, the better your chances of making your case, and sometimes getting that understanding can require decades of study, inside or outside of academia.

So yeah, it's never a bad idea to ask any question. But sometimes, if you are lucky, you actually get an answer!

In the instant case here, we know that virtually every aspect of Jesus's life was continually interpreted and re-interpreted looking for some kind of deeper, symbolic meaning, and "Nazareth-Nazorine" was definitely something which the early writers jumped all over. Depending upon your larger goals here, it might not even matter whether there even was a historical Jesus from a historical Nazareth or not. "Nazareth-Nazorine" is an evocative comparison to make, no matter whether "Nazareth" was fictional or not.

For example, if you want to prove that Mark made up the story of Jesus coming from Nazareth, to portray him as some kind of spiritual athlete, the lie works a lot better if there actually was such a town. And ex-post facto creating a town in the middle of nowhere just to support the lie would be an enormous task, impossible to keep secret, so would end up undercutting the lie anyways.

But if you want to prove that Mark *wasn't* trying to fool anybody into actually taking the story seriously, rather, Mark assumed his readers would recognize his story as being transparently fictional, it doesn't really matter that much either way. Sure would make perfect sense that Mark would have him come from some hicksville-sounding fictional name for a fictional town, but even if there *were* such a town, it wouldn't compromise Mark's story, Nazareth was basically nowheresville and having him come from there *still* makes the story sound pretty fictional.

So what *are* your larger aims here? Say you had a definitive answer to the question (which you probably do....) what difference would that make for your larger program? Is it really that important to you one way or the other? What's at stake?
rgprice
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by rgprice »

There are 5 mentions of "Nazareth" in Mark. According to Bible hub they read:

1:9 ἦλθεν Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ Ναζαρὲτ
1:24 καὶ σοί Ἰησοῦ Ναζαρηνέ
10:47 ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ὁ Ναζαρηνός ἐστιν
14:67 Καὶ σὺ μετὰ τοῦ Ναζαρηνοῦ
16:6 Ἰησοῦν ζητεῖτε τὸν Ναζαρηνὸν τὸν ἐσταυρωμένον

I don't read Greek, but clearly the usage in 1:9 stands out from the rest. How can all of the others be read? Are there any that require the reading "of Nazareth"?

What about the usage in 10:47?

Also in Acts we have:

24:5 πρωτοστάτην τε τῆς τῶν Ναζωραίων αἱρέσεως
rgprice
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by rgprice »

Nazirites are essentially people who have taken a vow to the Lord and been consecrated as being pure. Numbers tells us:

5 “All the days of their nazirite vow no razor shall come upon the head; until the time is completed for which they separate themselves to the Lord, they shall be holy; they shall let the locks of the head grow long.
...
8 All their days as nazirites they are holy to the Lord.

Reading Mark 1:24 in this context would yield:
“What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth the Consecrated? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.”

Obviously, this makes a lot of sense. So this seems to point to the possibility that Jesus was identified as a nazirite, meaning someone consecrated as holy, but then this got turned into meaning "someone from the town of Nazareth".
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by RandyHelzerman »

rgprice wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 3:18 pm
“What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth the Consecrated? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.”

Obviously, this makes a lot of sense.
Well there you go. It *does* make a lot of sense, and it makes just as much sense if Nazareth really existed or not.

I would even go farther and say it makes just as much sense whether there was a historical Jesus who came from a historical Nazareth or not--indeed whether you even postulate changes to the text or not. Certainly the text as we have it was evocative enough that everybody made that connection anyways.

But I don't know what else you are thinking about in connection with this, so I wouldn't be surprised if you don't want to follow me this far. AFAIMC, though, who cares about the historicity of Jesus? The only Jesus that matters is the only Jesus we can find, and that's the Jesus in these texts.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by StephenGoranson »

rgprice above, in part:
Reading Mark 1:24 in this context would yield:
“What have you to do with us, Jesus [next two words deleted] of Nazareth [replaced with:] the Consecrated? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.”

"Obviously, this makes a lot of sense. So this seems to point to the possibility that Jesus was identified as a nazirite, meaning someone consecrated as holy, but then this got turned into meaning "someone from the town of Nazareth"."
~~~~~~~~~~~

But that is not how Mark 1:24 reads.
There are two different Hebrew roots, different words, different spellings, different meanings,
which you arbitrarily swapped.

added: different pronunciations
Last edited by StephenGoranson on Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by RandyHelzerman »

RG Price is far more comfortable positing changes to the texts than I am (and his courage is why he comes up with far more interesting hypotheses than I do). But even *without* any changes to the text, anybody who read Mark allegorically would see Mark winking at them here. And even the later folks who took him literally noticed the connection and made him a literal Nazorite.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Even if "later folks"--"anybody would see"?!--who claimed to make him a "literal Nazorite" were ignorant of Hebrew?
Why not study Hebrew and Greek?
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by RandyHelzerman »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:25 pm Even if "later folks"--"anybody would see"?!--who claimed to make him a "literal Nazorite" were ignorant of Hebrew?
Why not study Hebrew and Greek?
Don't quite get that question? Can you elaborate?
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DCHindley
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by DCHindley »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:15 pm
StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:25 pm Even if "later folks"--"anybody would see"?!--who claimed to make him a "literal Nazorite" were ignorant of Hebrew?
Why not study Hebrew and Greek?
Don't quite get that question? Can you elaborate?
Hmmm, I think Stephen is suggesting that you are intelligent enough to be able to learn a bit about the underlying Greek & Hebrew/Aramaic words in question. The threads bookmarked in a post near the beginning of this thread will explain all.

The poster of many of them, the infamous "spin," was a nit-picker who demanded exactly same morphemes, without exceptions. That seemed to be overly exact but the same sort of nit-picking happens among professional scholars like Gershom Scholem, who got very precise about the similarities and differences of the possible origin of the angel name Metatron with Greek "meta thronos."

There is a good background web page here:
https://religion.fandom.com/wiki/Metatron

He dismissed the idea in Scholem, Jewish Gnosticism, 91, and 43, but I am not convinced he was right.

Anyhow, the point is this: Some of the posters in recent past do not appear to be aware that these technical differences have long been worked out in these earlier posts, at least to a tolerable degree, and have inadvertently compared apples to oranges. :tomato:
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Meaning of Nazareth?

Post by RandyHelzerman »

DCHindley wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:21 pm Hmmm, I think Stephen is suggesting that you are intelligent enough to be able to learn a bit about the underlying Greek & Hebrew/Aramaic words in question. The threads bookmarked in a post near the beginning of this thread will explain all.
Thanks for the clarification....obviously I need to do some background reading here to get hep to the jive talk of all you cool cats.

P.S. Lets not forget that Luke has the angel tell's Zacheriah that his son, John the Baptist, "He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born"

Everybody is a near-miss nazarite here....
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